Ladder vs. X-bracing: wassup?

[weisser]

Originally Posted by McCawber

I had several '60's vintage ladder-braced Harmony's over the years. The big Harmony Jumbo Soverign was a pretty fine guitar but it just didn't have the big tones I was looking for like my buddy's D-18. (Yeah, I know - that was asking a lot). Eventually I popped teh back off of one of them and rebraced it with an X brace as close to the Martin pattern as I could make it. It changed the tone - but it still wasn't a Martin.

If I cold ever get my hands on another Harmony Soverign I'd leave it exactly how it was originally built. They were pretty fine guitars.

I bought a 60's Sovereign last year and the neck was re- set here at Mandolin Bros. by Leroy Aiello. I also have a '72 D-18 and it's interesting to "A/B" the two guitars because they are so different. It would never think of replacing the ladder bracing on the Harmony. This guitar has it's own sound and there's really nothing else out there that is similar. Why change it?

[McCawber]

I agree with Weisser, Yamaha Junkie - I wouldn't do it again unless I had two and wanted to play with one. I think someone could do a better job of adding x-braces than I did (scalloped appropraitely, for example). My experiment didn't "improve" the tone - just change it.

If I could get my hands on a good Soveriegn, I'd keep it all original if I could. They were really fine guitars at a decent price.

[ryanfender]

I agree with most posts in this thread. I own a ladder braced Gibson LG-1 from 1957 and a J-200. The tone of each guitar is radically different almost like chocolate and vanilla. But I find it keeps my playing fresh and adds a new dimensional to certain songs I play. I wouldn't change a thing about my ladder braced Gibson. Its really just another color in my musically palette that really works for certain types of music. Its too bad there aren't more ladder braced options out there.

[Freeman]

Another modern builder of ladder braced guitars is Todd Cambio, you can hear Paul Geremia playing different models at Fraulini.com

Some, but not all, of the old ladder braced guitars as well as Sel-Mac (which are ladder braced) have tailpieces instead of pinned bridges. Therefore they have almost zero rotational torque around the bridge - this makes perfect sense for ladder bracing. X bracing works very well to strengthen the area between the bridge and soundhole - a ladder braced guitar simply doesn't need that.

The feeling that old Harmonys and Stellas and such somehow "imploded" because their tops were so weak is, in my opinion, mostly bunk. Lots of them were cheaply made, they just didn't stand up well in general. However some did, Leadbelly's famous Stella is in good shape in spite of the really heavy strings that he used (reported to be something like 16 -70 tuned to A).

I love the sound of the old blues so I decided to build a long scale ladder braced 12 - basically a Stella-clone. Here it is next to my X braced OM 12



And here are the big fat ladder braces



They are so totally different that it is not fair to compare the sound, but I can summarize the Stella clone by saying it is boxy and bluesy sounding, very old timey. It has a quicker attack and shorter sustain than the OM, and is much louder. With its 26.2 scale it is happiest tuned down four half steps (I down tune the OM two). It truely does have the sound that I associate with Willie McTell, Leadbelly, Geremia (whew!)

I like it enough that my project for this fall will be a small bodied ladder braced 6 string.

[Haans]

Nothin' wrong with ladders if they are built right...
Here's a parlor...

And a 12...


Here's a hybrid that I sometimes use on 12's...

[Misty44]

Great post, extremely interesting and illuminating material.

Thank you all you luthiers and techs for posting your expert know-how and photos...although on the short side, this has been one of my favorite learning threads in a long time.

[robj144]

Originally Posted by Tim McKnight

Ladder braced guitar design was abandoned after many tops failed and or developed the "roller coaster" affect that John Arnold described above. Due to the string pull and rotational torque on the bridge the top is trying to fold itself into the sound hole. Hence the X brace design provided the longitudinal support to resist those physical forces on the top.

The X design offers more resistance against torque and provides better support, but doesn't it also restrict movement of the top? It seems to me the ladder would lead to a top which vibrates more than an X braced top. I'm curious....

[JohnJayPl]

Originally Posted by Haans

Nothin' wrong with ladders if they are built right...
Here's a parlor...

And a 12...


Here's a hybrid that I sometimes use on 12's...

Well that's pretty cool. Is that an anti-neck rotation brace built into the ribs? What's it made off?

John

[gitnoob]

Bumping this old thread because I just acquired a ladder-braced Harmony OM.

Interesting in that it's fairly quiet (the ladder bracing is pretty heavy), so I'd like to put mediums on to drive the top (scale is 25", which reduces tension bit). But I'm worried about longitudinal support (thankfully, the neck angle is pretty good).



If you were to make mods without popping off the back, what would you do?

Add support on the sides of the sound hole? Between the flat bridge brace and the brace above the bridge? None of the above?

[Wojtek Turyk]

What's the two small diamond shapes (reinforcements?) above and below the bridge plate..?

Originally Posted by gitnoob

If you were to make mods without popping off the back, what would you do?

Add support on the sides of the sound hole? Between the flat bridge brace and the brace above the bridge? None of the above?

I've popped the top off of one of the Stella Grand Concerts. I never had a problem with the Harmony ladder bracing as that was just their sound, but I got one in really bad shape, and X-braced it. Here's what I did:



Now it sounds really, really close to my Martin DSM. Who knew a Grand Concert Harmony could sound close to a Martin, including the boomy bass?

Dan

[mstuartev]

Originally Posted by Kitchen Guitars

I have what I have been told is a H165 or the generic model of the Sovereign, the neck needs a reset for sure. All of the tortoise binding is gone so...... I was going to pop off the top and change it to an X brace.
You wouldn't do it huh?

These make KILLER slide guitars. Over the last 12 years or so I bought 2 for under 50 bucks! Can't do that no more. They both had baseball bat necks, no truss rods, and action way up high - perfect for slide. Sounded like snare drums when whomped on. Nice. A luthier at the Podium was ressurecting these a while back (neck set, etc) and selling them for 10 times that.

The H162 (spruce topped twin) just didn't sound any good comparatively.

[random works]

I enjoyed my Stella Harmony OM sized guitar as I got it: ladder braced, neck needing a reset and top sunken around the soundhole. Even with that, I heard something I liked. I sent if off to have the 'works' done, including X bracing.

How did the sound change? Everything got richer and sweeter. Previously it rocked for country style but lacked a lot for fingerstyle. I considered taking the back off and rebracing, but felt like I did not want to tackle a neck reset!

[dobrodave]

Little bump here I guess but I can add a bit, as I've been learning a bit more about this over the last year or so.
I'm a big fan of the Harmonys' (162 / 165 / and recently Sovs.) I've re-built quite a few. All need neck sets typically. So I did 2 165s', first got X-braced. 2nd just got the neck set, nut saddle setup etc. Brought the 2nd in to my buddy and didn't say a word about what I'd done, brace wise; just wanted his honest opinion. He basically thought it was pretty poopy, as did I. So after X-bracing, it was by far, much nicer. First one was also awesome with the X. Every 162 (spruce) I've ever worked all got the X (5 or 6 of em). I think they're every bit as fine as the 165's, just a little different, obviously.
I think having the old seasoned wood that's been moving as a guitar for so long gives you a wonderful palate for a great sounding guitar.
Love those Braz boards & bridges of course too. I also saved a cool little all Hog Favilla that worked out great (X'd currently the replacement to a Guild for the gal in Gypsy Moon). Re-built a slightly smaller bodied (00ish?) spruce top Favilla (50's ish), much like the 162 for a buddy, years back. One of the finest sounding things you'd ever spank.
So recently I scored a 12-fret-slothead 12-string Sov w/ a floater bridge. Set the neck and strung it up as a 6.
Wonderful, no need to open that up. Playing around with it as a 5-course currently (Octave mando w/a low C or mando cello w/a high E, if you will). Pretty cool, 3 - things in one. 6/10/12. Just swap out the nuts and saddles.
Back to the bracing thing; the 12-string/ like the 162/5s' have an 'all the way across the top' bridgeplate. Never seemed to like it on the smaller boxes but on the Sov, it seems to work fine.
Then there's a couple Kays I set necks on, plywood box w/solid tops. Kelvenator / 60's ish little jumbos.
Both sound awesome, no way they need re-bracing. I suspect a big difference is in the bridgeplate. The Kay's have a b-plate that's more of the norm; only slightly wider than the bridge itself.
I guess what I've come away with from all this is to;
1 re-set neck, set up etc.
2 evaluate
3 go on to X brace if needed.

X or ladder, either CAN make a wonderful guitar, just depends I guess.

Every box is different. Here's some vids of above projects

12 string Sov
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGE0...32ItJg&index=2

Harmony 162 vs Kay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGam...L7pLteA232ItJg

2 162s' / 2 Kays
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c88p...L7pLteA232ItJg

Little Favilla Hog in the works
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHaK...L7pLteA232ItJg

and being played
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ0U...L7pLteA232ItJg

20's Weymann banjo necks I made
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdc0...L7pLteA232ItJg

[stephenT]

I've owned a John How Ladder Braced Concert for six years or so, had it custom built (appointments and neck profile) and it's hands down the best guitar i own.

This How has excellent sustain and a complex sound for a mahogany guitar, so it's not what the common perception suggests to expect from a ladder braced acoustic. The How is a high end instrument and that's the sound.

The How is spec-ed for light gauge, never had any issue w/ the top moving.

Today I played a new (Collings) Waterloo, had a very vintage feel and sound. Built like a (very nice) cheap guitar of the '40s and sounded just like one as well, this unit was x braced (they make both). That old time blues sound is a combination of factors, bracing and style of construction.