Nice acoustic sound vs. looping & effects

[Joelguy]

Hello all,

I have a couple goals which are somewhat in tension with each other: one, I want a nice, natural amplified sound for my acoustic (no pickups installed yet). That being said, as a solo performer I think looping and effects on some songs could add plenty of interest to what I'm doing on stage. And of course, I'm trying to stay affordable here. I realize I'll need to compromise on one of these fronts, but the question is what will be the simplest set-up for my needs.

For sound quality, if I use something like a clip-on mic (such as the K&K Meridian), I'm not sure how straightforward or effective it will be to send that through looping & effects pedals, and interface it with the PA system. Could be tricky since I play at different venues with dif equipment.

On the other hand, I understand it may be more flexible to use pickups, in which case I'm considering the K&K Trinity system - SBT pickups with an internal mic. Presumably more feedback-safe, and might be simpler to use with pedals and so forth.

I own none of these elements now, but need to start somewhere - so recommendations for any of the above products are welcome, as well as tips on how to best set them up.

And explain it like you would to an 8 year-old. I've actually done a lot of reading thus far, but there's still plenty of confusion.

Thanks!

[Joelguy]

Also: are there recommended acoustic-suited effects pedals that can handle a bit of looping?

[krisls]

It really depends what is most important to you. You will have the mic is the only way to go vs the various pickups, the anti piezo quack lot and so on.

To me it is a slight trade off in movement and sound quality and stand alone effects in moderation against the theoretically superior sound of a mic. I use a Takamine ( mostly standing so I can move a little), a few pedals with a Radial PZ Deluxe. I have very very seldom played live in a space that a mic would work well enough to make it usable. I am seriously considering a looper too, probably the Ditto 2.

So that's my preferences, you'll get various points of view and assorted recommendations. You need to work out what will go together to let you do what you wish in the simplest and best way possible. There's always trade offs.

Kris

[Doug Young]

Hey Joel, you asked if I'd weigh in offline, so here goes :-)

It always seems like there are conflicting goals: good sound, simple, inexpensive, easy to use, flexible for different spaces, etc. Usually achieving one or two is the best you can do. Personally, I'd go with a pickup based solution, the K&K+mic works well for me, and will likely work in most places you play as long as volume isn't too extreme. You might get a better sound in some places with just a mic - I really like playing in a quiet room with a good PA with a studio mic on a stand! - but unless you know you're going to play venues that support that, a pickup will be "good enough" all the time. The K&K+mic can sound really good with a good sound system, and it's pretty simple and not too pricey. In places where you can't use the mic, the K&K alone can still sound quite good. If the venue is too loud to allow for the mic, the audience won't be able to hear the difference anyway. There are of course other systems that can sound great, too, all a matter of taste, but you mentioned the K&K, and that seems fine to me.

Where things get a bit more complicated is with the looper. If you have a dual source setup, you'll need a preamp/blender that goes before the looper, or one that has an effects loop. There are some more expensive loopers that have dual inputs, but I don't think any really support a guitar mic well. I think the easiest thing would be a preamp with an effects loop, especially since you mention "effects" like you may have others in mind. Just make sure it can blend your two sources and provide power to the mic unless your getting a pickup system that blends onboard. I also think theres a bit of a conflict between "pedals" and a mic - not only the wiring logistics with the dual source, but the sound, tho it depends on what you have in mind. A little reverb is fine, the looper's fine, but I'm not sure sure an overdrive pedal, or even phase/chorus, etc will work well with a mic - the sound may be a bit funky, and you may run into feedback issues.

If you haven't seen these, check out the videos from the Acoustic Guitar article on "five real-world rigs". The article's not online anymore, but here are the videos. Some setups are really simple, others complicated. Most of them are dual source, some use effects, some are simple and cheap, some are crazy. Lots of good advice in these videos, too.

Laurence Juber, pretty simple:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKxSHr6vrYo

Nina Gerber - she uses an expensive preamp, but all in all, fairly simple
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDLLVZVisn0

Mokai, also pretty simple:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0Rzxg4WuNU

Garrin Benfield, with a massive pedal-based system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Q_Pd5NFTY

James Nash, over the top computer system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejcNwZ4fdjw

[Joelguy]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Hey Joel, you asked if I'd weigh in offline, so here goes :-)

[...] There are some more expensive loopers that have dual inputs, but I don't think any really support a guitar mic well. I think the easiest thing would be a preamp with an effects loop, especially since you mention "effects" like you may have others in mind. Just make sure it can blend your two sources and provide power to the mic unless your getting a pickup system that blends onboard. I also think theres a bit of a conflict between "pedals" and a mic - not only the wiring logistics with the dual source, but the sound, tho it depends on what you have in mind. A little reverb is fine, the looper's fine, but I'm not sure sure an overdrive pedal, or even phase/chorus, etc will work well with a mic - the sound may be a bit funky, and you may run into feedback issues.

Thanks a lot. I think I follow you...
Regarding mic challenges, are you referring here to externals, or do similar issues apply to the internal mics such as that of the Trinity? If the latter is true, I trust I could just rely on SBT and dial the mic way down for those times when I want to use many effects. BTW, I think the Trinity system is one that includes a preamp/blender.
Thanks again,
Joel

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Joelguy

Thanks a lot. I think I follow you...
Regarding mic challenges, are you referring here to externals, or do similar issues apply to the internal mics such as that of the Trinity? If the latter is true, I trust I could just rely on SBT and dial the mic way down for those times when I want to use many effects. BTW, I think the Trinity system is one that includes a preamp/blender.
Thanks again,
Joel

Yeah, I can never keep K&K's system names straight. I just use the transducers+a mic (which I think they at least used to call a "trinity", even tho it was two pieces, but maybe I'm just confused). I don't use their electronics, so I don't have any experience there. I also use a different mic, but many people use the K&K Silver Bullet and like it.

yes, I'd think if you, say, hit an overdrive, you'd want to not have any mic in the mix, external or internal. You might make it work, but I'm betting it's not actually sound good, and would also be more feedback-prone. Most effects are designed for pickup inputs. If not actual electric guitars, then at least USTs or mags. Even an SBT like the K&K can be a bit funny with some effects. You may have noticed they aren't recommended for pedals like the Aura. They tend to have very variable characteristics, and bring a lot of the guitar into the sound, somewhat microphonic, so they don't have a simple reliable signal that some effects like. But it all depends, no harm in trying, you might find that some effects work great, even with the mic on. As you say, one approach is to turn the mic off in some cases. I think James Nash demos that on the video I posted when he goes into a distorted lead. I've also seen Phil Keaggy use lots of effects with his dual source setup. I don't know if he turns the mic down in those cases, but I'd not be surprised if he does at times. But that's one more thing to think about while you're just trying to play a song!

[Joelguy]

Makes sense.

I've noticed that some shops sell the mic & pickups are without the preamp - for that purpose, I'm wondering about using something like the Zoom A3, which I know you've reviewed. I just can't tell from looking whether I would even be able to turn the internal mic down using that unit. Any idea?

[slewis]

I gig regularly doing exactly what you're talking about. I've been through a number of iterations of gear and am now using and quite happy with a Zoom G3 -- not the A3 -- which does have a looping feature too but I use a Boomerang III for that. Anyway I frequently get some very nice compliments on the clean sound of my system, and I'm running through a Fishman SA220 and the Fishman pickup system in my CA guitar. I'm just not one of those who thinks that you have to use mics to get quality sound. I promise you, in the venues I play, no one would hear the possibly slight difference between my system and the sound of a good mic. Add to that the movement limits of using a stationary mic and I'm going with a pickup system every time. So yes, what you're looking at, IMO, is very doable. As far as effect units go, with looping ability, I know they're out there but I'm guessing you'd be happier with a dedicated looper if you can afford it, and they're not very speedy. Just be sure to get a two-pedal or two-button version!

[el_kabong]

Hey Joel:

For maximum flexibility, I've come, more often than not, to rely on a small mixer, which are equipped to handle almost every conceivable circumstance. Some are small enough that they're as handy and unobtrusive as any piece of gear you'll ever use.

All will handle mic inputs and many - if not most - have High Z instrument inputs...though you can always add an outboard DI. Want to use a mic alone, no problem. Add in one (or more) pickups, no problem.

Maybe more directly to your question, though, is that they also very easily handle the routing (sending and blending back in) whatever form of outboard effects and/or looper that you want to use. Say you want effects on the guitar, but not on the vocals...no problem. You want to then send both signals to a looper (or just the guitar), also no problem. You want to blend in an outboard backing track, drum machine, or computer-based processing, also no problem...just depends on the number and type of inputs and outputs on the mixer in question.

And, though you nearly always "get what you pay for", a cheap Behringer Xenyx 802 (at $65 new) will kill more birds with one stone than almost any other option I could think of.

Food for thought, anyway. Good luck.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Joelguy

Makes sense.

I've noticed that some shops sell the mic & pickups are without the preamp - for that purpose, I'm wondering about using something like the Zoom A3, which I know you've reviewed. I just can't tell from looking whether I would even be able to turn the internal mic down using that unit. Any idea?

I don't believe the A3's mic input provides power for a condenser mic, tho I may be forgetting. The A3 certainly has tons of effects, and sounds good, but it's pretty fiddly, tons of little knobs in a small package. Plan on having the user manual with you on stage :-)

The real challenge in recommending a system for you is the requirements of both dual source and pedals. I really don't have that much experience with lots of effects in a chain, I like to keep things simple and get a natural sound - so hopefully some people who use effects more will chime in. But what I'd suggest would be something like the DTar Solstice, or Headway EDB-2. Both will support you K&K and mic, and produce a mono blended output . The Solstice has an effects loop, so you could probably place your pedals in the loop and then send the output of the Solstice to a PA or amp. With something like the EDB-2, you'd send the output of the preamp to your effects, and then you'd probably want a DI after the pedals to interface with a PA - tho often if you're playing some place with a house system, they have DIs on hand.

If you're just getting started putting stuff together, I'd take it step at a time and see what you really need. You could start with as simple as the K&K mini, plugin to a $25 DI into the PA. See how that works, then go from there.

[Joelguy]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I don't believe the A3's mic input provides power for a condenser mic, tho I may be forgetting. The A3 certainly has tons of effects, and sounds good, but it's pretty fiddly, tons of little knobs in a small package. Plan on having the user manual with you on stage :-)

That's certainly what it would look like at first.

Neat to hear from el_kabong & Sean regarding their experiences. And Doug, yes, I totally agree with the "start simple" idea usually, though this thread may suggest otherwise. For now I'll pay a little more to have the Trinity system, and consider other toys as appropriate. I'll definitely save this thread to consult in future.

[jricc]

Originally Posted by slewis

I gig regularly doing exactly what you're talking about. I've been through a number of iterations of gear and am now using and quite happy with a Zoom G3 -- not the A3 -- which does have a looping feature too but I use a Boomerang III for that. Anyway I frequently get some very nice compliments on the clean sound of my system, and I'm running through a Fishman SA220 and the Fishman pickup system in my CA guitar. I'm just not one of those who thinks that you have to use mics to get quality sound. I promise you, in the venues I play, no one would hear the possibly slight difference between my system and the sound of a good mic. Add to that the movement limits of using a stationary mic and I'm going with a pickup system every time. So yes, what you're looking at, IMO, is very doable. As far as effect units go, with looping ability, I know they're out there but I'm guessing you'd be happier with a dedicated looper if you can afford it, and they're not very speedy. Just be sure to get a two-pedal or two-button version!

I too am using the Zoom G3 for live performance. Though I utilize the looping function for about 10 songs during a 40 song performance. The pedal does color the acoustic sound a little, but the G3 works well for me, so it's a good trade off.