do D-45 appointments improve sound quality of a guitar ?

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Of course that comment was to make a point, specifically this one...

One opinion does not constitute consensus, even when that opinion is from an experienced builder. Neither does having done something many times automatically make a person more right than someone who has done a thing fewer times. There are other experienced builders who believe the rabbet cuts and inlay around the edges do affect tone. I noted that in a previous post. I come down on the side of “some effect” not “better or worse”. Regardless, I’m willing to listen to other opinions. I don’t automatically call for cutting off debate as soon as someone weighs in with a response that suits me.

Todd, I'm sorry if I've come across as more strident or vociferous than usual on this thread. Your mention of the rabbet cut for a purfling channel is interesting. If that's something that does affect the sound, then other purfling such as herringbone trim should have a similar affect.

I guess what sparked my (mild but undeniable) indignation over the whole idea of abalone purfling "improving" the sound of a guitar is that it's a fairly blatant, self-serving sort of thing, especially if the guitar manufacturer can convince potential buyers that thirty dollars worth of abalone is worth paying thousands of dollars extra for a guitar.

In the olden days (as in a few years ago,) there WAS more hand labor involved, cutting out all those little pieces and gluing them into place. Now, though, it's literally just a few seconds work gluing pre-sized laminated abalone strips into their channels.

I think John Greven's comments earlier in the thread are valid - maybe I'm just as old school in this regard as he is. If the rabbet cut for the purfling channel does have an impact on the sound, that makes far more sense to me than the abalone doing it. So that possibility that you've raised changes my math on this from being 100% implausible to perhaps 5% plausible, 95% wishful thinking.

That said, even if this theory about the purfling channel changing the tone turns out to be 100% correct, we're still - as Mycroft put it - in "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" territory. Any tonal impact from abalone purfling has got to be exceedingly minor, if it exists at all.

But I think we're in agreement there. As another thoughtful contributor early in the thread wrote, everything in an acoustic guitar contributes to the sound somehow. So I've turned down the dial on my Vociferous-O-Meter®, and will respond more gently on the topic in the future.

Just as I do when I read comments about the supposedly miraculous tonal effects of fancy aftermarket bridge pins. Both subjects set the klaxon howling on my BS-Meter®, but that doesn't mean I have to come howling into the thread and land on it tromping around in hobnail boots.....

NOT My Favorite Communication Style

Short version: I remain unconvinced, but I always appreciate your comments and insights, Todd, and thank you for contributing them to this thread. What's more, I'm in 100% agreement with you that opposing viewpoints should definitely be expressed, especially when they have evidence backing up their assertions.

More power to you, Todd, and all you others who hold a number of different viewpoints on this subject. The free and civil exchange of information is what this forum is all about.


Wade Hampton Miller

[HFox]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Todd, I'm sorry if I've come across as more strident or vociferous than usual on this thread. Your mention of the rabbet cut for a purfling channel is interesting. If that's something that does affect the sound, then other purfling such as herringbone trim should have a similar affect.

I guess what sparked my (mild but undeniable) indignation over the whole idea of abalone purfling "improving" the sound of a guitar is that it's a fairly blatant, self-serving sort of thing, especially if the guitar manufacturer can convince potential buyers that thirty dollars worth of abalone is worth paying thousands of dollars extra for a guitar.

In the olden days (as in a few years ago,) there WAS more hand labor involved, cutting out all those little pieces and gluing them into place. Now, though, it's literally just a few seconds work gluing pre-sized laminated abalone strips into their channels.

I think John Greven's comments earlier in the thread are valid - maybe I'm just as old school in this regard as he is. If the rabbet cut for the purfling channel does have an impact on the sound, that makes far more sense to me than the abalone doing it. So that possibility that you've raised changes my math on this from being 100% implausible to perhaps 5% plausible, 95% wishful thinking.

That said, even if this theory about the purfling channel changing the tone turns out to be 100% correct, we're still - as Mycroft put it - in "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" territory. Any tonal impact from abalone purfling has got to be exceedingly minor, if it exists at all.

But I think we're in agreement there. As another thoughtful contributor early in the thread wrote, everything in an acoustic guitar contributes to the sound somehow. So I've turned down the dial on my Vociferous-O-Meter®, and will respond more gently on the topic in the future.

Just as I do when I read comments about the supposedly miraculous tonal effects of fancy aftermarket bridge pins. Both subjects set the klaxon howling on my BS-Meter®, but that doesn't mean I have to come howling into the thread and land on it tromping around in hobnail boots.....

NOT My Favorite Communication Style

Short version: I remain unconvinced, but I always appreciate your comments and insights, Todd, and thank you for contributing them to this thread. What's more, I'm in 100% agreement with you that opposing viewpoints should definitely be expressed, especially when they have evidence backing up their assertions.

More power to you, Todd, and all you others who hold a number of different viewpoints on this subject. The free and civil exchange of information is what this forum is all about.


Wade Hampton Miller

Wade,
I was going to edit down your comments for the sake of brevity but quoted the whole thing because you have shown the course we should all take in sharing our thoughts when we have discourse about the instruments we love .
Kudos and respect to you.

[Zigeuner]

One thing is certain. Adding abalone bling improves C.F. Martin's bottom line.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by HFox

Wade,
I was going to edit down your comments for the sake of brevity but quoted the whole thing because you have shown the course we should all take in sharing our thoughts when we have discourse about the instruments we love .
Kudos and respect to you.

Thanks, Zorro - that’s kind of you to say.

As for profit margins, Zigeuner, you’re completely correct: abalone trim is unquestionably a wonderful profit generator for guitar companies. It’s like buying a bottle of good wine at a fancy restaurant, only taking that profit margin to an exponentially greater level.


whm

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Of course that comment was to make a point, specifically this one...

One opinion does not constitute consensus, even when that opinion is from an experienced builder. Neither does having done something many times automatically make a person more right than someone who has done a thing fewer times. There are other experienced builders who believe the rabbet cuts and inlay around the edges do affect tone. I noted that in a previous post. I come down on the side of “some effect” not “better or worse”. Regardless, I’m willing to listen to other opinions. I don’t automatically call for cutting off debate as soon as someone weighs in with a response that suits me.

Well...fair enough...apparently Bill Collings and Richard Hoover feel otherwise, alas we haven't heard from as many luthiers as might be nice. But if you look logically at the structure of a guitar out at the edges, and noting that the purfling...pearl, wood, whatever is only about .060 thick, so it doesn't even go all the way down to the linings when the channel is routed out, it is seriously hard to imagine how anything that small is going to make any difference in transmitted vibrational response from the stiffest point on the guitar soundbox...the very edges.

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[guitar george]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

In the olden days (as in a few years ago,) there WAS more hand labor involved, cutting out all those little pieces and gluing them into place. Now, though, it's literally just a few seconds work gluing pre-sized laminated abalone strips into their channels.

How much time, money and effort is put into making those "pre-sized laminated abalone strips"?

[808K]

Originally Posted by hifivic

http://www.grevenguitars.com/bio.html

............go to post #77 in this thread.

Thank you for your response. It was interesting, at least to me, to read the opinion and see it in print.

For the record, I take no side in this, I simply don’t know enough to have an educated opinion. But I do appreciate hearing the thoughts and opinions posted here.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by Earl49

^^ This. The bling does nothing for tone, but the higher 40 series will get the best selection of available woods.

I would hope so.

[bizango1]

Hey Wade, you nailed it! ("100% implausible to perhaps 5% plausible")

We need the Mythbusters back! The Kings of Plausible/Implausible.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by guitar george

How much time, money and effort is put into making those "pre-sized laminated abalone strips"?

I can’t tell you that, but I can tell you that it’s an industrial process. The end product is not very expensive at all, so presumably it’s a highly efficient and cost-effective procedure.

Did you happen to notice how, in the 1990’s, all sorts of inexpensive Asian-made acoustic guitars suddenly started becoming available with abalone purfling and rosettes? If you didn’t notice, that’s when it occurred.

It was the introduction of Abalam to the market that made that possible.


whm

[Montesdad]

Originally Posted by guitar george

How much time, money and effort is put into making those "pre-sized laminated abalone strips"?

https://www.advancedshelltech.com

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by guitar george

How much time, money and effort is put into making those "pre-sized laminated abalone strips"?

I don't believe that they make the pre-sized strips. They make sheets of the stuff and then cut it to size. Pretty industrial.

[Rick Shepherd]

I don’t care if the bling makes any difference. I like inlay, and I like tone. If a guitar has both, it’s all good!

[51 Relic]

I don't really know but I played my Son in Laws Style 42 12 fret Custom Shop Martin last month and it looked and sounded astonishing . Found it really hard to put back in the case

[Steadfastly]

Originally Posted by Zigeuner

One thing is certain. Adding abalone bling improves C.F. Martin's bottom line.

Bling, bling, bling. You sir, go to the head of the class.