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  #91  
Old 03-08-2018, 11:29 AM
robj144 robj144 is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
a picked guitar string may move regularly BUT
that clip only shows a string that is pulled up and let go
It does doesn't show a picked guitar string which is usually picked in both a sideways and up or down picking motion.
Sideways is mathematically the same as pulled up.
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  #92  
Old 03-08-2018, 11:33 AM
robj144 robj144 is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
a picked guitar string may move regularly BUT
that clip only shows a string that is pulled up and let go
It does doesn't show a picked guitar string which is usually picked in both a sideways and up or down picking motion.
Here's a video of that:



Guitar strings are more rigid than the first string in the first video I showed, so it's a slightly different. However, they look nothing like the video you posted. That's due to the rolling shutter.
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  #93  
Old 03-08-2018, 11:34 AM
robj144 robj144 is offline
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Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme View Post
For sure. Note the video title indicates it was captured at 60FPS. That's slow.

Also note only the treble strings (higher pitch/frequency) exhibit the odd wiggles. The bass strings appear much more "normal".
The frame rate is a problem, but the rolling shutter is more of a problem.
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  #94  
Old 03-08-2018, 01:19 PM
Doug MacPherson Doug MacPherson is offline
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I was at practice last week and we were talking about the Wood and Steel Magazine and V bracing and whatnot, and one of our group members (who owns a Taylor 214c) said that she doesn't really care about all the technical aspects of bracing and whatnot, she just wants the guitar to sound good (tone) - feel good (playability) and look good. And that is where most people are at, I guess. Yet there are folks, like me, who find this style of new bracing, and anything else acoustic guitar, very interesting, whether it is all totally comprehensible or not, there are people at the cutting edge of guitar design and responsible tone wood (forestry) management and I respect Taylor for this.
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  #95  
Old 03-08-2018, 01:42 PM
Shades of Blue Shades of Blue is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug MacPherson View Post
I was at practice last week and we were talking about the Wood and Steel Magazine and V bracing and whatnot, and one of our group members (who owns a Taylor 214c) said that she doesn't really care about all the technical aspects of bracing and whatnot, she just wants the guitar to sound good (tone) - feel good (playability) and look good. And that is where most people are at, I guess. Yet there are folks, like me, who find this style of new bracing, and anything else acoustic guitar, very interesting, whether it is all totally comprehensible or not, there are people at the cutting edge of guitar design and responsible tone wood (forestry) management and I respect Taylor for this.
I couldn't agree with you more. The problem, is that Taylor is marketing the "technical aspects" to people that they just assume will accept it without questioning. I don't know anything about cars, so a dealer can sell me on some new and improved technology and I would take it for what it's worth.

They are specifically making claims on the tech specs, rather than just saying new and improved.
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  #96  
Old 03-08-2018, 02:17 PM
jessupe jessupe is offline
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In the world of quantum psychics, the foundation is built on what is called "the double slit experiment" now without getting into all the collapse of the wave form mumbo jumbo if we take the same principle of this experiment and exchange light waves with sound and study the interference patterns as to how sound waves pass through two slits and then eventually interfere with each other, what starts to be demonstrated is either constructive of deconstructive wave patterns.

In the case of a guitar there are no "slits" that sound is passing through as much as it is a pool of air that all these different vibration patterns are interacting with each other as well as the plate material acting as independent drivers in multiple locations

The science of this is quite clear, what I would debate is that V bracing or any bracing pattern would inherently eliminate or lessen deconstructive interference patterns that can lead to frequency interference that would present itself as a "better sounding guitar"

However, if this is the case, it should be 1. able to be demonstrated with frequency analysis and 2. be repeatable

So I think people are waiting to see spectral analysis as compared to x brace to see if there is a repeatable consistant difference.

but what ever the case may be, Taylor has come through with one of the best acoustic guitar marketing campaigns ever as this has been a subject of discussion for months now, good or bad, as long as their talking about you.
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  #97  
Old 03-08-2018, 02:22 PM
robj144 robj144 is offline
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Originally Posted by jessupe View Post
In the world of quantum psychics, the foundation is built on what is called "the double slit experiment" now without getting into all the collapse of the wave form mumbo jumbo if we take the same principle of this experiment and exchange light waves with sound and study the interference patterns as to how sound waves pass through two slits and then eventually interfere with each other, what starts to be demonstrated is either constructive of deconstructive wave patterns.

In the case of a guitar there are no "slits" that sound is passing through as much as it is a pool of air that all these different vibration patterns are interacting with each other as well as the plate material acting as independent drivers in multiple locations

The science of this is quite clear, what I would debate is that V bracing or any bracing pattern would inherently eliminate or lessen deconstructive interference patterns that can lead to frequency interference that would present itself as a "better sounding guitar"

However, if this is the case, it should be 1. able to be demonstrated with frequency analysis and 2. be repeatable

So I think people are waiting to see spectral analysis as compared to x brace to see if there is a repeatable consistant difference.

but what ever the case may be, Taylor has come through with one of the best acoustic guitar marketing campaigns ever as this has been a subject of discussion for months now, good or bad, as long as their talking about you.
I don't know what quantum psychics are though. Are they psychics in multiple parallel dimensions?

Actually, the double slit experiment is not needed here. It's merely meant to show the duality of light. All you need is wave mechanics part of it classically speaking.
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  #98  
Old 03-08-2018, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by robj144 View Post
Here's a video of that:
Guitar strings are more rigid than the first string in the first video I showed, so it's a slightly different. However, they look nothing like the video you posted. That's due to the rolling shutter.
OK that looks like there is not the kind of significant irregularities in the video I posted and I can buy that it could be the rolling shutter.

But in the slo-mo video the speed is so slow it is also hard to get a sense of... if the vibrations are really regular or not. And what is the double pick supposed to be demonstrating ?

But to back up a bit I am not claiming Andy Powers statements are correct or that what is being posted here is not relevant. I am questioning if what is being posted, actually disproves his statements in any succinct manner .


And I am by no means claiming to have extensive experience or formal higher education in Physics or Math, or the applied sciences involved in sound propagation
However I do have about 15 years experience in the general sense of analyzing test methodology and possible variation anomalies .
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  #99  
Old 03-08-2018, 03:00 PM
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I don't know what quantum psychics are though.
They are a really progressive jug band
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  #100  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:20 PM
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It depends on how you tap. If you tap with the flesh of your finger, like I did, you don't excite all higher frequencies and get a smoother graph. If you use a sharp piece of metal, you will get a graph more like yours - and damage the top of your guitar.

However, those higher frequencies contribute very little to the tap tone of the top, which is predominantly determined by the first few large peaks in the spectrum, which are much louder as you can see in the graph. In addition, all those high frequency peaks are impossible to systematically control by adjusting your bracing, so they don't really matter.

In addition, the peaks in your graph seem to have a higher Q, but they don't. Note that the horizontal axis is logarithmic so the axis gets compressed for higher frequencies. If the Q's were high, your guitar would produce high-pitched pinnggggg tones if you would you tap it. And no guitar does that.
Sorry for taking a couple of pages before replying, I said I wasn't going to but I started another guitar.

So let me get this straight. You tapped with your finger and it produced a smooth graph (the software tends to smooth things also) and you say that it is the lower frequencies that are only important.

Well, not my graph, since Photobucket I have not put up many of my pictures yet. Now as far as harming a top, I use an eraser with a pointy shape attached to a wood handle to excite my guitars. No damage at all and I get to see what the strings are working into. Yes I understand about Q, log scales, dampening, coupled resonators, tuned circuits actually many things in my past seem to come in handy with my new found hobby of guitar building. I used a lot of examples from fluid dynamics, performance engines, speaker tuning, and of course electronic theory to teach Instrumentation Technology.

I started to give you a nod for your previous posts on this new thing Taylor is selling. But your sluffing off the higher resonances because you can not be bothered to use more than your finger to tap with, and besides we can't control it so it does not matter response changed my opinion. Just because resonances are not tall enough to make a guitar sound like a piece of glass does not mean they have no bearing on the sound, I am sure the anti-resonance troughs do not account for much either. Mind you, that is one of Taylor's main selling point, an even loudness of the higher notes with no dead spots. I will wait ans see how things pan out before I discount whether we can control (to a point) what happens in the upper registers.
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  #101  
Old 03-08-2018, 04:37 PM
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Sorry for taking a couple of pages before replying, I said I wasn't going to but I started another guitar.

So let me get this straight. You tapped with your finger and it produced a smooth graph (the software tends to smooth things also) and you say that it is the lower frequencies that are only important.

Well, not my graph, since Photobucket I have not put up many of my pictures yet. Now as far as harming a top, I use an eraser with a pointy shape attached to a wood handle to excite my guitars. No damage at all and I get to see what the strings are working into. Yes I understand about Q, log scales, dampening, coupled resonators, tuned circuits actually many things in my past seem to come in handy with my new found hobby of guitar building. I used a lot of examples from fluid dynamics, performance engines, speaker tuning, and of course electronic theory to teach Instrumentation Technology.

I started to give you a nod for your previous posts on this new thing Taylor is selling. But your sluffing off the higher resonances because you can not be bothered to use more than your finger to tap with, and besides we can't control it so it does not matter response changed my opinion. Just because resonances are not tall enough to make a guitar sound like a piece of glass does not mean they have no bearing on the sound, I am sure the anti-resonance troughs do not account for much either. Mind you, that is one of Taylor's main selling point, an even loudness of the higher notes with no dead spots. I will wait ans see how things pan out before I discount whether we can control (to a point) what happens in the upper registers.
Look, I just wanted to give an example of convolution coloring of sound waves and identify the most important frequency components of the tap tone of my guitar, not reproduce an accurate response curve of my guitar. In order to properly do that, I would probably also need an acoustically dead room, not my living room, and a perfectly flat mic. But if you are interested, tomorrow I will post a curve of the same guitar with all the high frequencies. All I have to do for that is generate a shorter tap. By the way, you should tap on the bridge, not on the top.

In any case, it won’t change anything to my arguments posted in this thread.
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  #102  
Old 03-08-2018, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Picker2 View Post
Look, I just wanted to give an example of convolution coloring of sound waves and identify the most important frequency components of the tap tone of my guitar, not reproduce an accurate response curve of my guitar. In order to properly do that, I would probably also need an acoustically dead room, not my living room, and a perfectly flat mic. But if you are interested, tomorrow I will post a curve of the same guitar with all the high frequencies. All I have to do for that is generate a shorter tap. By the way, you should tap on the bridge, not on the top.

In any case, it won’t change anything to my arguments posted in this thread.
Just so I am understanding correctly you state AP's claim that if you pluck the E5 @ the 12 fret the guitar will also generate at 329 and 320 is not true .....
But you claim to offer proof of this by setting up a recording of the body resonance produced by tapping on the bridge, (which is not the condition or criteria stated by AP) . The reason you give for recording the tap instead of the string pluck, does not stand up to objective analysis, and also has nothing to do with conditions in AP's statement . The reality is that ,,,,, at same time that you recorded the the bridge tap you could have recorded and graphed a string pluck at the 12 Fret E string and would have then actually and directly addressed the condition in the AP statement, you claim is not true .
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  #103  
Old 03-08-2018, 08:31 PM
Monsoon1 Monsoon1 is offline
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Originally Posted by jessupe View Post
In the world of quantum psychics, the foundation is built on what is called "the double slit experiment" now without getting into all the collapse of the wave form mumbo jumbo if we take the same principle of this experiment and exchange light waves with sound and study the interference patterns as to how sound waves pass through two slits and then eventually interfere with each other, what starts to be demonstrated is either constructive of deconstructive wave patterns.

In the case of a guitar there are no "slits" that sound is passing through as much as it is a pool of air that all these different vibration patterns are interacting with each other as well as the plate material acting as independent drivers in multiple locations

The science of this is quite clear, what I would debate is that V bracing or any bracing pattern would inherently eliminate or lessen deconstructive interference patterns that can lead to frequency interference that would present itself as a "better sounding guitar"

However, if this is the case, it should be 1. able to be demonstrated with frequency analysis and 2. be repeatable

So I think people are waiting to see spectral analysis as compared to x brace to see if there is a repeatable consistant difference.

but what ever the case may be, Taylor has come through with one of the best acoustic guitar marketing campaigns ever as this has been a subject of discussion for months now, good or bad, as long as their talking about you.
FYI there are scientists at every level who are now disputing the double slit experiment.
Just Google - quantum double slit debunked. -
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  #104  
Old 03-08-2018, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Picker2 View Post
Look, I just wanted to give an example of convolution coloring of sound waves and identify the most important frequency components of the tap tone of my guitar, not reproduce an accurate response curve of my guitar. In order to properly do that, I would probably also need an acoustically dead room, not my living room, and a perfectly flat mic. But if you are interested, tomorrow I will post a curve of the same guitar with all the high frequencies. All I have to do for that is generate a shorter tap. By the way, you should tap on the bridge, not on the top.

In any case, it won’t change anything to my arguments posted in this thread.
No need, I gave an example of what a response can look like. I did not want people to get an idea that everything is smooth and even and just maybe the peaks and troughs are something that Taylor is trying to get rid of. And as a far as I am concerned, if you do attain a very smooth and even response it can take part of the personality away from the sound. Might as well be playing a Les Paul. Without distortion.
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  #105  
Old 03-08-2018, 08:44 PM
robj144 robj144 is offline
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FYI there are scientists at every level who are now disputing the double slit experiment.
Just Google - quantum double slit debunked. -
As someone in the field, it's not debunked. The pilot wave maybe a different interpretation of Quantum Mechanics.
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