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View Poll Results: Do you support this idea and would you be willing to support it? | |||
Nope this idea sucks | 7 | 50.00% | |
Yes I love the idea and would support it and if it is developed help spread the word | 7 | 50.00% | |
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll |
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#46
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Here's 2 examples
#1 The chords in the key of D flat major are Db major, Eb minor, F minor, Gb major, Ab major, Bb minor, and C diminished. #2 The chords in the key of B flat major are Bb major, C minor, D minor, Eb major, F major, G minor, and A diminished. All of the above chords are easily fingered on piano or played on a horn instrument. They can be a bear to finger on guitar. If you aren't playing with a horn player, wouldn't you rather play those chords in a guitar friendly key of D or B? By doing so, you also don't have to remember the individual notes in those "unfriendly" keys. Quote:
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2003 Froggy Bottom H-12 Deluxe 2019 Cordoba C-12 Cedar 2016 Godin acoustic archtop 2011 Godin Jazz model archtop |
#47
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Some keys are definitely nicer though. I'm a big fan of Fm because I like the way minors are all barres and the majors can all be open. If I'm playing melody, I wouldn't be thinking about the notes, I'd think about the intervals starting from Db and Bb, exactly the same shapes as C major or any other major, isn't it?
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"Militantly left-handed." Lefty Acoustics Martin 00-15M Taylor 320e Baritone Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten) Last edited by SunnyDee; 04-20-2017 at 09:49 PM. |
#48
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I suppose the appropriate cliche is that you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. As an example, since Toby Walker has been in this thread... If you buy one of Toby's lessons and maybe even watch the video, unless you work hard to find ways to put that lesson to work for you, you won't have really gained anything from that lesson. Toby did his job, but it is really up to the student to do the rest. From what I have seen of his video samples, Toby is a good teacher, so that is not at issue in my example. What the student does with that material is. As a completely separate issue, what I see missing in the guitar learning market is a comprehensive course for guitar that would bring the student up to a level, building a solid foundation, to be able to make maximum use of all the various DVDs and books available. All these books and DVDs seem to focus on one thing or another, with varying suitability for a given student's learning style and/or level of capability for that particular DVD or book. A student who has a solid foundation in music theory and how all that applies to the guitar, along with the ability to already play at least some tunes, maybe play some lead, can hear, can read and write music and TAB, should be able to drop into most any DVD or book and benefit from it. The course that gives this to the student is what seems to me to be missing from the whole guitar learning market landscape. When self-teaching, it is a case of the "blind leading the blind". If a person decides to go into a wilderness or jungle he or she has never been to before, wouldn't it make sense for that person to have a guide? If that person is instead familiar with the territory, then going in alone, the person will likely fare much better. I worked as a software engineer for about 10 years before going back to college and getting my degree. If we were to list all the skills one really needs to do the job well, prior to going to college, there were several of these skills that I would show having a very high degree of skill in, while others would show none. The thing to understand is that I was completely unaware of these other skills, so how would I even know I needed them, especially if I was getting by with what I did know? We don't know what we don't know, no matter how much we might insist otherwise. I know that I could do a lot better in my arranging. When I have looked into those arrangers for solo guitar who seem to put out really excellent work, they all seem to have a solid handle on fretboard harmony. This goes WAY beyond knowing the notes on the fretboard, the CAGED system, and how to apply it. So now I am studying that, as well as the work of these arrangers. In order to study their work, I need to understand what it is they are doing, and I can promise that it is a lot more than just slapping chords under the melody! When I finished college, that same list of skills would show a much more even level of knowledge, and across all the skills. This gave me a much broader array of skills to make use of, resulting in much more efficient and solid algorithms and code, so that the quality of my work increased significantly. I expect that kind of return from my studies of fretboard harmony too (not the financial, but the intrinsic satisfaction). I should clarify the type of arranging and playing I am talking about. One could easily make the correct argument that the old blues guys and many of the folk artists don't know much about music, but do know how to make use of what they do know to good effect (i.e. all that musical knowledge is not necessarily a prerequisite for these performers). I am thinking more along the lines of folks lke Earl Klugh playing standards and pop tunes on solo guitar, or Laurindo Almeida, and players along those lines, arrangers such as Stan Ayeroff and Howard Heitmeyer, and others of that caliber, arranging standards and pop tunes for classical guitarists. In that realm, you can really hear the quality (or lack of it) in arrangements. A person can get by nicely slapping chords under the melody in this realm, but to really take control of what is happening in these arrangements musically and shape them at will, takes some real knowledge of harmony. Contrary to a belief that I used see among some guitar players (not so much lately) knowledge IS power and it makes you a better all around musician, just as it did for my career. Whether a person really needs this knowledge depends on the person's musical goals. Tony
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“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.” — Franz Schubert "Alexa, where's my stuff?" - Anxiously waiting... Last edited by tbeltrans; 04-20-2017 at 08:47 PM. |
#49
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Yes, it's a relatively rare self-taught person who can figure out what they need to know.
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"Militantly left-handed." Lefty Acoustics Martin 00-15M Taylor 320e Baritone Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten) |
#50
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On the guitar, if you really get a handle on the CAGED system, all keys are equal. I have no trouble playing in a jazz group, which I have done. Horn players want to be in Bb or Eb. Singers have to be in the keys that match their vocal range. A guitar player who intends to work in these environments needs to have that fluency. Tony
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“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.” — Franz Schubert "Alexa, where's my stuff?" - Anxiously waiting... |
#51
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"Militantly left-handed." Lefty Acoustics Martin 00-15M Taylor 320e Baritone Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten) Last edited by SunnyDee; 04-20-2017 at 09:36 PM. |
#52
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I think if you created a website offering "free interactive guitar lessons", you would be overwhelmed with the response.
Why not try an ad for "free guitar lessons", detailing your over-the-phone, email, Skype, Face time or whatever methods you offer system, on Craigslist? You would likely have more customers than you could handle. |
#53
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That said, I didn't know Tony's work - and work it is, having looked at the pdf he linked to - and I'm impressed by how good it is, and how kind it is of him to have made this available for free. I salute you, sir. I'm glad the debate has turned a little toward the question of motivation and what you do with the material you have at your disposal, whether it be tab, video or whatever, that seems crucial to me. Chord-melody and arranging isn't my thing, I'm into old acoustic blues, learning from the recordings, but we each find a path that fits. That's a good thing. |
#54
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However, that said, there are keys on the guitar that favor open strings: C, A, G, E, and D for major and E, A, and D for minor. That has nothing to do with "easy" or "hard" keys, but everything to do with how the guitar is tuned. The part of your post that I highlighted in bold was an interesting point about the guitar sounding like a ukulele way up high. I took a lesson once with David Qualey, and he commented on that same thing, saying that when arranging for guitar, it sounds best overall to try to stick to the middle areas of the fretboard. He also tries to incorporate open strings where possible because they help the overall sound to be more resonant and sustaining. Tony
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“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.” — Franz Schubert "Alexa, where's my stuff?" - Anxiously waiting... Last edited by tbeltrans; 04-21-2017 at 09:00 AM. |
#55
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This is assuming that all students are completely independent, which is absolutely false. It is only the exceptional, tremendously gifted student that is like that. I’m not sure how many students you’ve ‘taught’ with this method, but I can tell you that over 40 years of teaching, I have had literally thousands of students in that time period. Of that amount, only a small percentage were self-guided. The rest truly needed to shown not only which door to open, but how to choose which door would be right for them and how to proceed down that path. At this point some would need a structured map, while others needed a little less structure. In either case, on the smallest exception needed a lesson or two without proceeding on their own completely. Please don’t assume that I do not value the need for a student to eventually learn HOW to fish, rather than just being given a fish. My role as a teacher is to first show them what they want to learn, and then teach them how they can go about learning on their own, using the foundation that is laid out for them. I can’t begin to tell you how many students have come to me saying that they wound up wasting more time wading through those ‘free’ lessons on the internet in order to finally find one that addresses their personal, specific issue. And even if and when they find that, many of those lessons are not structured, nor do they provide any end game or guided path toward that students particular goal. Additionally, they provide zero feedback, as they are all canned. A qualified, experienced instructor, regardless of the subject matter, provides a student with a time saving, structured path that is personalized to their specific needs. Not only that, the instructor provides invaluable feedback if that student may be making crucial mistakes during the learning process, which everyone, regardless of their natural ability, will be bound to make. To say that ‘teachers are usually nothing more that pass-throughs of information that the observers metabolize to the extent that they can teach themselves’ completely devalues the art, craft, dedication, genius and importance of the teacher. Finally, in the case of those rare, exceptional students that only need to be show which door to go through, the value of the teacher to actually understand that student’s need and point them to the correct door cannot be by any means underestimated.
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Fingerpicking Acoustic Blues/Rag/Folk/Slide Lessons https://www.tobywalkerslessons.com/ |
#56
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I absolutely agree with you that it is up to the student to take what a teacher has shown them and apply it to their future studies. In all of my lessons I strongly emphasize that point. I pride myself on teaching students how to fish, rather than just giving them a fish. It is my sincere hope that the student will be able to take what I teach in the lessons and continue down their path with more confidence, knowledge, and skills. I believe that if a 'horse' is truly thirsty, being shown a solid, time-saving path to the water hole will help them not only quench their thirst, but hopefully teach them how to find other paths with less stress and strain. One of the things that I offer each and every one of the students that purchases my lessons is free, additional support, whether it's in the form of email correspondence or by them sending me a YouTube video of their progress. I believe that without feedback, a student can develop some pretty poor habits that without being corrected, can wind up impeding their progress on to the goals. Of course in the event of live, Skype lessons, that part of it is automatic. I'm sorry if it appears as if I'm trying to sell something here, which I sincerely am not. I have to admit, as most people can see from my posts in this thread, that offering services like this for free on a consistent, personalized, and structured basis seems to be highly unlikely. Additionally, I believe that in most cases, but not all, it can seriously devalue the reputation of the instructor and the quality of the content.
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Fingerpicking Acoustic Blues/Rag/Folk/Slide Lessons https://www.tobywalkerslessons.com/ Last edited by Toby Walker; 04-21-2017 at 07:11 AM. |
#57
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I feel the need to apologize for my sometime brief responses. It comes from a frustration with trying to type lengthy responses using my phone.
Thank you Tony for the kind words on my playing.. I am not a beginner, although when learning a new song or technique, it does feel like I'm a beginner. here's my background; I started playing in 1965 & took about a year of guitar lessons. I played in high school & college rock bands, played in acoustic duos during my 6 years in the Navy. During that time, I knew chords & songs because my band mates taught me or sheet music gave me the information needed. Then came a 20 year break.. About 15 years ago, I got back into guitar playing and learned the theory behind scales, chords, fretboard, etc... Over the years, I've dug into a variety of genre's; pop, acoustic blues, jazz, semi-classical & whatever peaked my interest at the time. I can't hold a key while singing, so these days I play strictly solo guitar arrangements. I play for my own enjoyment and the occasional open mic night. The singers at the weekly guitar gathering that I attend typically call for "capo 2" or capo 3".... We play just about all genre's. Attempting to videotape myself became an effort in futility. I spent more time screwing up the recording process than actually playing my guitar. So, there aren't any video or audios. Could I play songs on the guitar with those nasty flat signatures? If given enough time to analyze the arrangement, SURE!! But if I don't have to play in those keys, I won't. So, it becomes "out of sight, out of mind" for me. Rather than call the keys hard or easy. Let's call the keys... preferred & not preferred when it comes to the guitar. LOL Looking at my current repertoire of songs, I play them in the keys of C,A,G,E,D & Eb. There are 2 songs that I play in the key of Eb. #1 is the Stevie Wonder song; My Cherie Amore and was arranged by Pete Huttlinger (RIP) #2 is Moonlight in Vermont arranged by Rich Severson. One of the songs that I play in the key of D is played using C shape chords with the capo on the 2nd fret. Why? Simply because I like the sound of the open strings.
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2003 Froggy Bottom H-12 Deluxe 2019 Cordoba C-12 Cedar 2016 Godin acoustic archtop 2011 Godin Jazz model archtop |
#58
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Keys are not a problem...if you classify your changes using the good old I/IV/V way of relating.
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Harmony Sovereign H-1203 "You're making the wrong mistakes." ...T. Monk Theory is the post mortem of Music. |
#59
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I agree with Tony & Toby on quite a bit of this.
I have a dislike to DVD, VHS lessons simply because I developed a lot of habits that went uncorrected. Skype has never been a choice for me to utilize. Simply because I hate having to have my computer or tablet on-line in order to play guitar. My preference is to sit in front of an instructor and get immediate guidance & feedback. But that's just me & my personal preference coming into play. There have been great and not-so great instructors in my journey. I've encountered a few that seem to have no clue what to do with intermediate or advanced students & reply on the student to dictate the lesson plan. Or those that have a strict rigid structure to their plans and refuse to deviate from it or adapt to a students needs. One instance for me was after taking lessons with an instructor for 2 years, I asked "what do I need to work on next?"... the response was "well, what do you want to work on?" After 2 years of weekly hourly lessons, the instructor should have a feel for my weaknesses and what should be the next steps. Another instance was with a classical guitar teacher. I was very upfront that I wanted to use his instructions simply to improve my left and right hand technique. I had no intention of playing classical music. Unfortunately, his method relied solely of the strict hand position for classical. Which really doesn't apply to playing fingerstyle jazz or pop. I've also encountered great instructors who adapt their approach to the needs of the students.. Such as teaching theory as needed instead of it being the focus. Teach me the ins and outs of key of XYZ when we reach the point of learning a song in that key. Quote:
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2003 Froggy Bottom H-12 Deluxe 2019 Cordoba C-12 Cedar 2016 Godin acoustic archtop 2011 Godin Jazz model archtop |
#60
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My motivation for learning was to have the ability to accompany myself while singing a song. cue: chord charts and lyric sheets. I was able to expand the arrangements of my playing guitar after receiving theory instruction and taking time to practice the application of the lesson. My motivation for learning was wanting to be able to produce a wider variety of musicality in my arrangements, triggered by playing with/observing others. Like SunnyDee, I've got lots of the information in my head, and it is now a matter of connecting the brain with the muscle memory, and to do it effectively. For me, one thing at a time is the way I succeed best. one example of making that connection is practicing common turnarounds in every key, so that I can recognize them when played by others, and can seamlessly integrate them into arrangements. I, VI, II, V, I is an example of a popular turnaround.
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