Condenser mics instead of dynamic mics for live performance?

[ricdoug]

Condenser microphones, such as the MXL990 work great with multiple vocals and instrumentals. They do require proper microphone technique and the band needs to choreograph the songs to present this right. The visual movement adds to the entertainment factor. Check out bands like Doyle Lawson and Quicksilver. Here's an old article on how to use a single microphone:

[ricdoug]

Here's one example:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vStQwWM-MX0

[Wyllys]

Sorry, but the single mic which works for 'grass bears NO relationship to the OPs situation.

And for Heavens sake, learn to re-size your pictures so they don't wash out the entire thread into unreadability...please.

[ricdoug]

It actually works for many situations, other than bluegrass, Wyllys. The size of the photos was to make each page readable on a screen or tablet.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by ricdoug

It actually works for many situations, other than bluegrass, Wyllys. The size of the photos was to make each page readable on a screen or tablet.

Yes, many possible situations... but not the OPs.

FYI, I've used variations of the single mic technique since the '60's and am a sound engineer with my own PA company. It is not applicable in this case, especially considering the OPs band leader seems to have his own agenda.

But someone else who's never seen Flatt and Scruggs videos or gone to a bluegrass festival may find it interesting. I was born shortly after the era where there were no mixers in PA systems, simply a single mic feeding an amp and some speakers...the original single mic application.

[ricdoug]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

Yes, many possible situations... but not the OPs.

FYI, I've used variations of the single mic technique since the '60's and am a sound engineer with my own PA company. It is not applicable in this case, especially considering the OPs band leader seems to have his own agenda.

But someone else who's never seen Flatt and Scruggs videos or gone to a bluegrass festival may find it interesting. I was born shortly after the era where there were no mixers in PA systems, simply a single mic feeding an amp and some speakers...the original single mic application.

I'm also a sound engineer/performer, as are many here, with my own company and work with others. The OP has $260 in Guitar Center bucks to spend for 5 vocalists and 3 guitars, which limits some other suggestions I might add. Cardioid pattern microphones that have a wide enough pattern to pick up 2 to 3 vocalists at a foot from the front and sides that have enough gain before feedback to work in that environment. The Sennheiser e935 microphones are great for that application, but are out of budget even before adding a small system for the OP to downsize. Ric

https://en-us.sennheiser.com/global-...35_12_2012.pdf

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by ricdoug

I'm also a sound engineer/performer, as are many here, with my own company and work with others. The OP has $260 in Guitar Center bucks to spend for 5 vocalists and 3 guitars, which limits some other suggestions I might add. Cardioid pattern microphones that have a wide enough pattern to pick up 2 to 3 vocalists at a foot from the front and sides that have enough gain before feedback to work in that environment. The Sennheiser e935 microphones are great for that application, but are out of budget even before adding a small system for the OP to downsize. Ric

https://en-us.sennheiser.com/global-...35_12_2012.pdf

The OP needs to convince the leader to take Cottens advice. No further gear needed.

[midwinter]

Did you say what's being mic'd and I missed it? Are the guitars being mic'd? Are they not running their own pickup systems?

Originally Posted by Wyllys

This is right on the money and expands on my initial assessment in post #3. Too often a technical solution is proposed to solve a non-technical issue. I completely endorse not using the PA until the ensemble can function coherently without it. THEN use the PA for its proper use: reinforcing the ensemble sound.

[ricdoug]

8 mic's for 3 guitars and 5 singers, Midwinter. He did not specify if they were mic'ing the guitars, or guitar amplifiers. I suspect they are mic'ing the guitars. Ric

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by ricdoug

8 mic's for 3 guitars and 5 singers, Midwinter. He did not specify if they were mic'ing the guitars, or guitar amplifiers. I suspect they are mic'ing the guitars. Ric

Yes, they're miking the guitars as far as I can tell from the OP.

A single mic setup is going to be hard when one of the musician/singers plays keys and another sits on a cajon.

Still, less is likely more here. I hope they just want to have nice music and aren't shooting for the "group catharsis" SPL so prevalent in todays "worship".

[J Patrick]

...the OP sys there are 3 guitar players a cajon player a vocalist and a keyboard player...i see no reason why the the OP's idea of setting up two condensers would not work...the only "issue" i see is the keyboard player and whether or not he or she would be playing though a stage rig...(which could be placed and set so as to act as a monitor while being picked up by one of the condensers).....

.....if i was making an attempt at such a setup i would place three performers around each mic and make adjustments from there....i'd probably put two guitarists and the singer on one mic..the rest on the other...if i had to have monitors which are very iffy i'd go with a side fill setup....depending on several factors...(the room, the actual sound system and the players and their instruments)...it could work....or not....its tricky....

...that said.... setting up 8 dynamic mics is not that difficult and is probably the easiest way to achieve a good mix....

[midwinter]

It's hard to make recommendations without a clearer sense of what's going on, PA-wise.

I asked because, for $250 in GC bucks, it might be simpler just to buy three soundhole pickups and call it day. Unless the board/snake is limited in inputs.

[cotten]

Thanks, ricdoug, for that article on how a single mic can work so well in Bluegrass settings. I've seen it, but now I understand it better. Much appreciated! If a worship band were to take a Bluegrass approach with Bluegrass (spelled "loud" - might be more difficult when things get softer) instruments, I see no reason this wouldn't work. I'd enjoy it! However, I didn't get the impression that this was what the OP was suggesting here. Still, I learned something here. Not that this is all that unusual. Why, I learn something new every decade or two!

cotten

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by J Patrick

...the OP sys there are 3 guitar players a cajon player a vocalist and a keyboard player...i see no reason why the the OP's idea of setting up two condensers would not work...the only "issue" i see is the keyboard player and whether or not he or she would be playing though a stage rig...(which could be placed and set so as to act as a monitor while being picked up by one of the condensers).....

.....if i was making an attempt at such a setup i would place three performers around each mic and make adjustments from there....i'd probably put two guitarists and the singer on one mic..the rest on the other...if i had to have monitors which are very iffy i'd go with a side fill setup....depending on several factors...(the room, the actual sound system and the players and their instruments)...it could work....or not....its tricky....

...that said.... setting up 8 dynamic mics is not that difficult and is probably the easiest way to achieve a good mix....

Good advice.

The make it/break it point in any such endeavor is of course the cardinal rule of system headroom/gain before feedback:

LOUDEST SOUND AT THE MIC WINS.

When you try to use a few area mics (condenser OR dynamic) to pick up multiple sources, the distance to the sources increases while the distance between mics and mains remains relatively the same.

If you've read up on PAG/NAG (potential acoustic gain/needed acoustic gain) you know that every doubling of distance between sound source and microphone requires the sound source to be 6dB louder to maintain proper input level. You can't just turn up the input gain or use a mic with higher sensitivity.

Yes, you can TRY to minimize the number of mics, but you have to maintain the other relationships (working distance/input SPL) to have any chance of keeping enough headroom to effectively utilize the sound system short of feedback.

It's all about compromises...and the immutable Laws of Physics.

Edit:

http://www.sounddesignsolutions.com/AT62_PagNag.pdf

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/024...lator.pdf?1696

[shekie]

Originally Posted by KevWind

First it sounds like you have two different issues, one simplifying the setup and two getting a more balanced whole band sound

Simplify : To add to what has been posted (in general) as far as switching to "stage hand held type " condenser mic's while in general condensers tend to be more sensitive there may not be a big improvement with that style condenser.

If it were me in your situation, And I was looking to simplify and eliminate and turn 8 mics into 2..... what I might consider is getting a pair of LDC mic's which you can probably do with your budget. Because they can allow for there to be more distance between performers (than normal hand held style stage condenser/dynamic mic's) and also be better at getting a balanced sound with just 2 mics. As someone above said, the Band will then have to learn to acoustically balance and coordinate the performance, which is not hard but will take some practice .

That said: that may not actually fix what sounds like could be another potential issue, which is what the band leader is currently doing . Which is a much more touchy subject. And one often prototypical of band situations. While the intention of the band leader may well be genuine, to help and carry the performance for the benefit of the entire band, at least in his mind.

BUT the other side of that coin is the issue you have related and that can be a possible bone of contention and in reality may not necessarily be in the interest of the entire band. So before spending any money on new gear what I suggest and have done in the past is call a all band "non musical" discussion meeting completely away from any performance venue or home turf.
And try to have a productive sit down discussion and air the issue you mentioned, then try to reach a consensus on weather to continue to feature the him and the vocalist, or to bring in more of rest of band. If you can find a consensus first, you can then address as to whether to simplify into two mics and if the band wishes to to continue to feature the leader and vocalist that can be done by simply positioning them closer to the mics and or just agreeing to have them acoustically play and sing louder

You actually described my situation more eloquently than I did. It really is two separate issues, simplifying setup and breakdown (guess who is the band's roadie?), and seeing if two condenser mics would allow more band members to be heard. I think your suggestion of having a non-musical meeting to discuss this touchy subject really needs to happen before spending any money on a fix that might not end up being a fix at all.