Condenser mics instead of dynamic mics for live performance?

[shekie]

Originally Posted by ricdoug

8 mic's for 3 guitars and 5 singers, Midwinter. He did not specify if they were mic'ing the guitars, or guitar amplifiers. I suspect they are mic'ing the guitars. Ric

Yes, all three guitars get independently mic'ed, and there are 5 mics dedicated to vocals. However, because of how the band leader sets the relative volume on the guitar and voice mics and the fact that he and the vocalist sing quite a bit louder than the other singers, only their voices and his guitar really get heard. This is confirmed when asking congregants after a service who and what they heard.

[shekie]

Originally Posted by cotten

Let me take things in a little different direction for this worship band. Practice without mics a few times, and little or no amplification for the keyboard. The goal here is to achieve acoustically - without mics or reinforcement - the kind of musical balance and blend that you need. Do this as musicians, and the job of the sound guy on the mixer suddenly becomes exponentially easier. In other words, the musicians should handle the musical things, and let the sound guy only have to think about maintaining that sound as he reinforces it.

As you're rehearsing acoustically, figure out who has the "lead" generally, and if anyone else takes it temporarily on certain sections of a song or songs. Then do whatever necessary to fit everything else behind those leads, not compete with them.

Once you have worked out the musical aspects, bring back the mics and amplification, first at very low levels, and increasing them gradually until things are loud enough, but not too loud. Keep any monitors, whether floor or in-ear, down to the barest minimum. During this process, you'll likely find that you can reduce your number of mics. At least, you can have two backup vocalists share a dynamic mic.

Now let's talk about having three acoustic guitars. If all three are playing the same rhythms and chord shapes down on the first three frets, the sound is going to get very muddy, very fast. I'd suggest trying one down close to the nut in standard tuning and open string chords. The second player would capo up to the 5th fret or so, and give the mix some different voicings. The third player might, if he/she is capable, be more for occasional "color," such as lead line or different tunings. Maybe even use a ukulele or 6-string banjo for more color still occasionally. You might consider using a variety of these suggestions on different songs. Even a great sound can quickly get tiring if it's exactly the same for multiple songs. Work for variety in your sound.

• acappella
• keyboard & solo only
• hold the cajon occasionally
• have a guitarist pick up the ukelele/banjo to give you more "color"
• work to vary your sound within individual songs
• etc.

Yes, I know. This doesn't exactly address the micing issues you mentioned. But then such suggestions have helped other worship bands with whom I've worked, far more than just what king of mic to use.

cotten

Great advice! Regrettably, probably not likely to be implemented given the various egos involved. The band leader is content with how things are now as he is the "star" and is reluctant to give that up in the spirit of having more contributions from others in the band and improving the over all sound.

[cotten]

Yes, I know what you mean. Humility is not automatic just because one is playing in a church. As something of an "outside expert" (ha!), I was asked once to help "define" the sound of a certain church's worship band. By ten minutes into my one-evening workshop with them, I knew that their leader's ego and "leadership style" was one of their top three problems. Unfortunately, he was the one who asked me to come help, and he was already demonstrating a strong aversion to any suggestion for change. It looked like my hands were tied, and that I wasn't going to be any help at all.

Then it dawned on me to use my Zoom H4n, placing it about 1/3 back in the center of where the people would be on Sunday. I asked the leader if he would lead them in their very best song, the one he thought had the best tone and balance, the one where the rhythm was most in the pocket, and the harmonies were in the best tune. They did, and I recorded it, as best I could under the circumstances. We took that recording back to their choir room, which had the church's best playback sound system. I asked the group to move at least six feet apart, and then give me a handwritten, unsigned list of short phrases to describe what they heard. I played it back for them six times before I gathered those lists.

While they were making their lists, on a white board, I wrote headings for several basic issues I knew were likely to be mentioned, things like Rhythm, Balance, Intelligibility, Pitch, etc. Then I read the lists, putting each comment under one of those headings. Whoah! How revealing! Each of the 9 members of the group had come up with much the same kinds of comments. Things like

• we hear only one voice and one guitar
• don't know why the rest of us are here
• doesn't really matter whether in the pocket or not, nobody can hear us
• do we really sound that bad?
• etc.

The leader became uncomfortable and defensive very quickly. First he blamed the sound guy, who countered that "I'm using the exact same settings we do every Sunday, the ones you told me to." Then he blamed my recording. There was some truth there, I admitted, but it was not too far off from what the people were hearing. He gradually simmered down, still sulking a bit as I continued putting list items on the board. Occasionally there would be a little, mostly unanimous discussion of a comment.

When I finished, the leader stood up and faced me and the group. I didn't know if he was going to fire us all or cry, but he was obviously upset. "Okay, what do we need to do to fix this?" That was the breakthrough they needed. We prayed, then the instruments went out to the platform for some instruments-only work, something they'd never tried. The leader and vocalists stayed in the choir room for some vocals-only time. During this time the sound guy and I went out to the mixer, where he proved himself pretty knowledgeable. Twenty minutes later, we all got together. We gave the sound guy free reign, and went through a 6-minute sound check.

Then they did that same song, and I recorded it the same way. We went back to the choir room to listen. There was a night and day difference, for the better! The leader and his guitar were still leading, but you could hear the rest of the group, and they were together, both rhythmically and harmonically. That was just one song, and about all the time we had, but the group, including the sound guy, all of whom had been just about to quit, found a real excitement in working together. Perhaps the main reason was that the leader had a change of heart. They called me a "miracle worker," but I knew better. All I did was to get them to listen to each other. Wait. Maybe that was kinda miraculous after all.

cotten

[Wyllys]

Yes, such ensembles can be tricky to shepherd into awareness.

And then there's the associated need to debunk "faith-based physics" in many cases...like thinking that condenser mics have some magic properties allowing them to pick up and amplify distant sounds.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by shekie

Yes, all three guitars get independently mic'ed, and there are 5 mics dedicated to vocals. However, because of how the band leader sets the relative volume on the guitar and voice mics and the fact that he and the vocalist sing quite a bit louder than the other singers, only their voices and his guitar really get heard. This is confirmed when asking congregants after a service who and what they heard.

Yes as I noted in my first post #12 that is the situation that you will need to find a way to resolve first before considering moving to a two mic system.
Because although 2 LDC can probably cover your situation (BTW even ones within that $260 budget). It will take as others have said cooperation on the part of all band members to work. Without resolving the above situation moving to a two mic system will likely not change the out of balence problem. As the leader and vocalist will just repeat the behavior, unless you can convince them to move to the outside positions and let the other three be in the middle and closer to the mic's

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Yes as I noted in my first post #12 that is the situation that you will need to find a way to resolve first before considering moving to a two mic system.
Because although 2 LDC can probably cover your situation (BTW even ones within that $260 budget). It will take as others have said cooperation on the part of all band members to work. Without resolving the above situation moving to a two mic system will likely not change the out of balence problem. As the leader and vocalist will just repeat the behavior, unless you can convince them to move to the outside positions and let the other three be in the middle and closer to the mic's

Do yourself a favor and read carefully the material linked in post #29.

This should explain the difficulties inherent in what you propose, which, by the way, will not work for the OP. The physics are against it unless you can get the entire group within a few feet of the mics.

Not gonna happen.

[holly01]

has been bookmark, this seems like a very interesting thread