Help me shop please!

[HodgdonExtreme]

Hi everyone! I've been vaguely aware of the existence and benefits to CF guitars, but hadn't really spent any time considering them - until now.

I'm been kinda shopping for a 2nd (less fragile and/or less expensive) guitar that I don't mind exposing to adverse conditions - such as campfires, the boat, people drinking, etc etc. My main guitar is a late model Taylor 810, which I really love.

I was in a GC the other day and they had a used Composite Acoustics CCB on the wall for $1500. I gave it a go and was quite pleasantly surprised. It sounded really nice and played very well. It felt like the neck was pretty wide and perhaps the nut was wider than my (very) preferred 1.75".

Anyway, it got me thinking I'd like to consider a CF as my 2nd guitar. The trouble is demoing them. The CA was the first one I've ever seen in the flesh. I don't mind buying this so-called "2nd guitar" without demoing if I can collect a bunch of intel from ya'll here on AGF and other various interwebz resources, but I'm having a hard time finding it.

I was hoping you might point me towards some places I can read up and do my do diligence. My 3 key restraints are 1.75" nut, no smaller than a grand concert but no bigger than a Dred, and ~$1500 plus/minus. I don't mind buying used.

Any help would be much apreesh!

[Acousticado]

You've come to the right place in this CF subforum to read up and do your due diligence. CAs are really good guitars. I've owned two, still have my Cargo. Love it. Probably the only other brand you'll find in stores is Rainsong. Also great guitars with a different tone than CA. The other major composite builders are Emerald, Blackbird and Journey (one model has a removable neck for travel). Like most of us here, we have hung-out in this subforum long enough to get a sense of the various brands/models, and virtually everyone is coming away very happy with their purchase even when never having tried one. By the way, although you're initially looking at a CF purchase as a 2nd guitar, like many of us, they are not inferior to quality wood guitars in any way. In fact, they can be superior. Many players here with high-end Taylors and Martins are admitting that their CF guitar(s) have become their main players, with some even selling off those wood guitars. So you know, Emerald is the most customizable builder, offering just about any variation you may want in terms of scale length, nut width, fan fret, headstock design, woody tops (infused to the carbon fiber), etc.

[Earl49]

HE, welcome to the dark (carbon fiber) side! If more stores stocked CF guitars so that people could actually try them, the sales would definitely spike up, but that is currently a chicken-and-egg situation. I'm actually getting rid of wood guitars - including several nice Taylors - and going all composite. Come for the low maintenance, stay for the tone and playability.

I'm not familiar with that model of CA guitar -- they usually have model names like Ox and Gxi. CA's tend to have thin, very electric feeling necks, in my experience, and are reputed to sound more "woody" than the other brands.

It is hard to find anything CF for your $1500 price point, except for the new 2017 Rainsong CH (composite hybrid) series, which are a real breakthrough in price point. They use a mix of carbon fiber and fiberglass for the back and sides, and a uni-directional CF top, and get rave reviews here for both tone and value. Carbon fiber is simply not cheap - either for the material or the build processes. The Rainsong WS is a do-everything shape, similar to the Taylor GA body but with dreadnought depth.

You do not mention where you are. Sometimes the best option is to get together with someone who already has one and play. If you are anywhere near Boise, you would be welcome to meet at my house sometime and try all the ones that I own (Rainsong WS-1000, CA Cargo, Blackbird Lucky 13, and soon an Emerald X20-12 twelve string). Or talk with Ted at LA Guitar Sales. He knows more than just about any other retailer and can reliably guide you on your CF journey.

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by Earl49

HE, welcome to the dark (carbon fiber) side! If more stores stocked CF guitars so that people could actually try them, the sales would definitely spike up, but that is currently a chicken-and-egg situation. I'm actually getting rid of wood guitars - including several nice Taylors - and going all composite. Come for the low maintenance, stay for the tone and playability.

I'm not familiar with that model of CA guitar -- they usually have model names like Ox and Gxi. CA's tend to have thin, very electric feeling necks, in my experience, and are reputed to sound more "woody" than the other brands.

It is hard to find anything CF for your $1500 price point, except for the new 2017 Rainsong CH (composite hybrid) series, which are a real breakthrough in price point. They use a mix of carbon fiber and fiberglass for the back and sides, and a uni-directional CF top, and get rave reviews here for both tone and value. Carbon fiber is simply not cheap - either for the material or the build processes. The Rainsong WS is a do-everything shape, similar to the Taylor GA body but with dreadnought depth.

You do not mention where you are. Sometimes the best option is to get together with someone who already has one and play. If you are anywhere near Boise, you would be welcome to meet at my house sometime and try all the ones that I own (Rainsong WS-1000, CA Cargo, Blackbird Lucky 13, and soon an Emerald X20-12 twelve string). Or talk with Ted at LA Guitar Sales. He knows more than just about any other retailer and can reliably guide you on your CF journey.

Another popular guitar among forum members is the Emerald X20 (6 string). An X20 Opus series (all are black CF weave with hi gloss top and Emerald's "crystal ice" slightly pebbly back and sides finish) can be had new for $1,500. There is virtually no wait time for Opus series guitars. The also popular smaller X7 can also be had for well under $1,500. Emerald sells direct, so you'd have to email Sean at [email protected]

[Earl49]

Ooops.......... I have been so focused on my customized Artisan X20-12 that I overlooked the plainer Opus version of the X20. Good catch!
http://emeraldguitars.com/product/x2...v=7516fd43adaa

The folks at Emerald are just stellar to work with, but only sell direct -- no dealers. And there is one in stock right now!
http://emeraldguitars.com/product-ca...v=7516fd43adaa

[HodgdonExtreme]

I'm in northern Alabama (Huntsville). It'd be awesome if there was a member near(ish) by that had an example or two to demo!

Checked again - the CA I tried out was a GX-HB-CCB

I'm not solidly capped at $1500, but I'd like to keep it in that zone. I've just barely begun to shop, but it looks like there are a lot of choices on ebay/reverb around that price point.

Are the CA's the only ones that come equipped with stainless frets? That seems like a nice bonus!

Thanks for the great replies so far!

[Earl49]

Blackbird, CA, and Emerald all use SS frets. Rainsong uses regular nickel silver fret wire. Even so, my 2001 WS-1000 with MANY play hours shows little fret wear, kinda surprising given my heavy left hand.

[Methos1979]

Two that pop into my mind that meet your criteria is the Emerald X20 and the Rainsong Shorty. Both have a body size approximately the same as your typical 000/OM and are versatile, well-made and excellent sounding guitars.

In the Rainsong brand you can go up or down in size - plenty of models to choose from. In Emerald the next size down in the X7 if you're looking for something that travels well.

Rainsong is a huge maker of CF guitars so you will find many more available used. Emerald is a much smaller maker that is great for customization. They do pop up here used though. Go check out their website. Sometimes they have stock models for sale.

Plenty of YouTube demo videos for both brands.

[bry]

Pm sent to you.

[HodgdonExtreme]

So I'm noticing that sound holes seem to be quite a bit more common on the CFs than they are on wood guitars.

Is this because it is needed more on a CF, or perhaps just more "acceptable" considering how untraditional CFs are to begin with?

Pros/Cons?

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

So I'm noticing that sound holes seem to be quite a bit more common on the CFs than they are on wood guitars.

Is this because it is needed more on a CF, or perhaps just more "acceptable" considering how untraditional CFs are to begin with?

Pros/Cons?

You're likely meaning "offset" soundholes and if so, it depends on the builder. Rainsong typically offers center soundhole placement, but does offer an offset model. CA and Blackbird offers both center and offset depending on the model. Emerald predominantly offers offset soundholes...the X20 has a unique offset soundhole design that also incorporates a soundport that directs the sound both up to the player and out to the audience.

To my knowledge, offset soundholes have nothing to do with need, more about a design choice, perhaps as a part of being avan-garde. No real pros/cons, just personal preference me thinks.

[HodgdonExtreme]

So the Rainsong concert hybrid looks interesting, but it seems they're all (or mostly) 12 fret guitars?

This may be a better question for the gen-pop of AGF, but...

I'm not opposed to 12 fret, and have played a couple, but not enough to have formed much opinion myself: What are your opinions on switching back and forth between 14 and 12? Do you find that if you're really used to a 14 that it is unnatural to pick up and play well on a 12? Does the muscle memory of frethand position translate to the 12 guitar?

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

So the Rainsong concert hybrid looks interesting, but it seems they're all (or mostly) 12 fret guitars?

This may be a better question for the gen-pop of AGF, but...

I'm not opposed to 12 fret, and have played a couple, but not enough to have formed much opinion myself: What are your opinions on switching back and forth between 14 and 12? Do you find that if you're really used to a 14 that it is unnatural to pick up and play well on a 12? Does the muscle memory of frethand position translate to the 12 guitar?

Though I have some measure of curiousity about 12 fret guitars, I've never played one, so I'm kinda guessing here and maybe should leave it to others to respond. That said, my CA Cargo is 14 fret with perhaps the shortest of scales on such a guitar. I speculate that there should be no issues going back and forth in terms of feeling unnatural (some 14 fret Cargo owners have difficulty because of the shorter fret spacing). I tend to think that the only difference would be a feeling of less string tension (the Cargo offers this, which I kinda like) and maybe fewer frets to access if one likes playing that high on the neck.

[Carbonius]

Help you shop??? That's a dangerous statement. But I do the same thing. There are many people here who have had their hands on 100's, even 1000's of guitars. So the pool of experience is vast.

You like your 810 and also mentioned you liked the CA GX. Both of those give a full tone. The GX is between Taylor GA & GS in size (16.125 lower bout). It's also a hair (1/8) deeper then your 810. Some say the pre-Peavey CA's have a wide neck, I'm not sure if the one you played is pre or post Peavey. I know they now offer 1 3/4 & 1 11/16 necks now.

Based on the tone you are accustomed to, I would avoid smaller bodied guitars. You may find they are lacking since you are so used to bigger bass. So CA GX or GXi (GXi only available used), Rainsong WS, Jumbo or Dread and maybe the Emerald X20. I'm confused by the X20. It's lower bout is only 15 1/4 but then it's 4 3/4 deep. People say it has a lot of bass for it's size. I doubt it rivals a Dread, but several 814 owners love their X20.

Then of course there's issues of cutaway, electronics, etc. Both Rainsong and CA do the barn door thing. You can special order Rainsongs without electronics for a reduced price. They also started offering non-barn door electronics but ONLY on their newest Concert Hybrid line (I asked). However finding a Dread (no cutaway) with no electronics isn't that hard.

If you don't mind a short scale 12 fret, the Rainsong WS Concert Hybrid can be ordered with no electronics and with a case for $1349. I suspect street price may be lower. They are 5 inches deep at the endpin though, just something to consider. http://www.rainsong.com/concert-hybrid/chws.html

The tone between a Grand Concert and a Dread is vast. I had a guitar that was a bit smaller than a Grand Concert loved it. However only for 10-15 minutes... then I remembered how full my GS size Taylor sounds and went to play that. I got rid of the small guitar just for that reason, it always sent me to my Taylor.

[Earl49]

I am heavily imprinted on 14 fret guitars. I own one inexpensive wood guitar that is 12 fret (bought for that reason, and also to try a parlor body size). It takes a little play time to adapt when I switch to 12, but almost never when going back to 14. You can reasonably simulate the effect of a twelve fret guitar by putting a capo on the second fret, but that also shortens the scale length noticeably. I find myself reaching for the wrong position at times, if I am using the position relative to the body fret, rather than the fingerboard dots.

The biggest thing for me is that I cannot reach up to the 15th and 17th fret for certain tunes, unless there is a cutaway. This is not a problem with my Lucky 13 (which has 13 frets to the body, but no neck heel getting in the way). I actually do play up above the 12th fret a fair amount, but many never do. If you never play up there, you would have no problem with a 12 fret guitar.