Amplification for 30-100 people

[lschwart]

This may seem an obvious thing to say, but you should first try things directly into the DXR alone to see what you think about the sound. You may think it's fine or at least fine for now. Then see what it's like doing that with the DBR10. Then try each speaker in combination with a ZED10FX for easier, more precise mixing, plus good EQ and effects.

At that point, you should be able to make a decision. The key will be whether the DXR10 sounds so much better than the DBR10, direct or through the ZED, that you just have to have it (that will balance against the smaller size and weight of the DBR10 and its lower cost). If you just have to have the DXR10 and it sounds OK for now alone, then buy one and wait on a ZED and a second speaker. If the DBR10, on the other hand, sounds close enough for your purposes, then you might want to go ahead and get the DBR and the mixer, so you only need to wait on a second speaker (and you'll be able to afford one more quickly).

Trust your ears, your sense of the solidity and portability of the speakers, and how much advantage the ZED gives you, and take it from there!

Louis

[swburton]

Originally Posted by lschwart

This may seem an obvious thing to say, but you should first try things directly into the DXR alone to see what you think about the sound. You may think it's fine or at least fine for now. Then see what it's like doing that with the DBR10. Then try each speaker in combination with a ZED10FX for easier, more precise mixing, plus good EQ and effects.

At that point, you should be able to make a decision. The key will be whether the DXR10 sounds so much better than the DBR10, direct or through the ZED, that you just have to have it (that will balance against the smaller size and weight of the DBR10 and its lower cost). If you just have to have the DXR10 and it sounds OK for now alone, then buy one and wait on a ZED and a second speaker. If the DBR10, on the other hand, sounds close enough for your purposes, then you might want to go ahead and get the DBR and the mixer, so you only need to wait on a second speaker (and you'll be able to afford one more quickly).

Trust your ears, your sense of the solidity and portability of the speakers, and how much advantage the ZED gives you, and take it from there!

Louis

Sounds like a plan!!

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by swburton

Sounds like a plan!!

Let us know how it goes!

Louis

[swburton]

So it's done! I went for the DBR10 with ZED10FX.

I started with the DXR10 - but felt that the tone wasn't quite what I'd want for guitar or mic, so with no EQ control, it seemed best to try out the DBR10 with ZED10FX. This allowed for a good tone, plus the FX on the vocals was a nice touch.

I did try the ZED10FX with the DXR10 speaker to compare, but felt that whilst it did have more bass, I felt that the bass muddied the sound actually. This was also true when I tried the DXR10 by itself (guitar, mic, iPad plugged in directly) - the bottom end just muddied the sound, and I thought it sounded better cutting out the bass at 100Hz using the switch on the back (which would normally send to subwoofer?).

Anyway - thanks for all your help folks, it really has been appreciated. Feel that I have a good sound, a great start and now ready to get practising for my first live opportunity in late January!

Have ordered a stand and cover to complete things off.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by swburton

So it's done! I went for the DBR10 with ZED10FX.

I started with the DXR10 - but felt that the tone wasn't quite what I'd want for guitar or mic, so with no EQ control, it seemed best to try out the DBR10 with ZED10FX. This allowed for a good tone, plus the FX on the vocals was a nice touch.

I did try the ZED10FX with the DXR10 speaker to compare, but felt that whilst it did have more bass, I felt that the bass muddied the sound actually. This was also true when I tried the DXR10 by itself (guitar, mic, iPad plugged in directly) - the bottom end just muddied the sound, and I thought it sounded better cutting out the bass at 100Hz using the switch on the back (which would normally send to subwoofer?).

Anyway - thanks for all your help folks, it really has been appreciated. Feel that I have a good sound, a great start and now ready to get practising for my first live opportunity in late January!

Have ordered a stand and cover to complete things off.

Sounds like you've got a great little system for your purposes. Enjoy it!

I'm not sure why the DXR10 seemed comparatively muddy in the bass, but yes, that low cut switch is for using the speaker with a subwoofer. Were any of the switches engaged on the DBR? Note that the ZED gives you both a low filter on the channel EQs and a High Pass Filter on each mono channel as well for controlling bass. You would normally engage the HPFs for any channels that don't need big bass when you are also mixing in sources that do. So HPF on for vocals, acoustic guitar, fiddle, etc., and off for keyboards, bass, drums, etc.

Louis

[swburton]

The only switch engaged was the DSP countour - but I also turned it off and found the sound still to be a bit muddy.

Thanks - I've put the HPF on for my guitar and vocals. Having read the manual today, I see that channels 3+4 are better for guitar, so have moved that over too, though I haven't compared the two closely enough to tell the difference.

What FX would you normally use (if any)?

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by swburton

That is quite an impressive amp - I had a look at the manual to see what everything did. It is £1070 in UK, whereas the Bose L1 compact is around £750, for a comparison. Is it worth the extra? I see that the Jam 400 gives a mac SPL of 123db - is that good? I can't see what the Bose L1 Compact gives. Not that I'm sold of the Bose L1 Compact - it just seemed a simple setup...trying to read up on it versus other things. Any thoughts?

I can get the Bose L1 Model 1S (without bass) for £1150 or £1350 with bass, though I see the inputs are very limited, so would need either the T1 Tonematch or a mixer I presume?

I have been thinking of a Schertler (difficult to find and expensive) or an Acus - findable but about £850.

I finally bought a used Bose L1 compact (which says suitable for 100-150 people), plus a mixer for £80.

[Irish Pennant]

Originally Posted by swburton

So it's done! I went for the DBR10 with ZED10FX.

I started with the DXR10 - but felt that the tone wasn't quite what I'd want for guitar or mic, so with no EQ control, it seemed best to try out the DBR10 with ZED10FX. This allowed for a good tone, plus the FX on the vocals was a nice touch.

I did try the ZED10FX with the DXR10 speaker to compare, but felt that whilst it did have more bass, I felt that the bass muddied the sound actually. This was also true when I tried the DXR10 by itself (guitar, mic, iPad plugged in directly) - the bottom end just muddied the sound, and I thought it sounded better cutting out the bass at 100Hz using the switch on the back (which would normally send to subwoofer?).

Anyway - thanks for all your help folks, it really has been appreciated. Feel that I have a good sound, a great start and now ready to get practising for my first live opportunity in late January!

Have ordered a stand and cover to complete things off.

You've bought for yourself a good system and a good foundation. You mentioned plugging in your iPad, when my system isn't being used for guitar, it's my home stereo, I plug in my laptop and play internet music, music that I've recorded, music from my CD collection and even music that's shared on this site.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by swburton

The only switch engaged was the DSP countour - but I also turned it off and found the sound still to be a bit muddy.

Thanks - I've put the HPF on for my guitar and vocals. Having read the manual today, I see that channels 3+4 are better for guitar, so have moved that over too, though I haven't compared the two closely enough to tell the difference.

What FX would you normally use (if any)?

The 1/4" inputs on channels 3 and 4 are high impedance inputs for use with passive guitar pickups. If your pickup system is active (the kind that uses a battery), then it won't make a difference which channel you use. If you need to use a long cabelto get to the mixer, you should plug your guitar into a DI box and use an XLR (mic) cable to go into one of the mic inputs on the mixer.

As far as effects are concerned, you should just experiment. When I use the mixer for guitar and vocals, I like to use the Hall reverb #1 (the one that lets you adjust for the "size" of the hall effect). I set it for a smallish hall and use just enough to hear the effect without it being overwhelming.

Louis

[swburton]

Hi all, I'm back with a setup question as I am about to use my gear for the first time next week in a small setting. It won't be a big gig, kind of a coffee-house style thing, so speaker won't be at full (or even all that loud).

I wanted to clarify where to position the speaker (Yamaha DBR10 with 90 degree horizontal coverage angle) so that the band can hear from it but without causing feedback. Having done sound (non-professionally) for informal events, I am aware that normally you would position the speaker in front of the band to prevent feedback - but without any monitors, etc I am looking for a way to enable us to hear ourselves a bit. The type of mic I have is a supercardoid (http://en-uk.sennheiser.com/global-d...45_12_2012.pdf) if that helps any.

I guess in time I need to consider monitors of some form, but as that is unlikely to be an option for next week, I wondered if anyone has some advice?

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by swburton

Hi all, I'm back with a setup question as I am about to use my gear for the first time next week in a small setting. It won't be a big gig, kind of a coffee-house style thing, so speaker won't be at full (or even all that loud).

I wanted to clarify where to position the speaker (Yamaha DBR10 with 90 degree horizontal coverage angle) so that the band can hear from it but without causing feedback. Having done sound (non-professionally) for informal events, I am aware that normally you would position the speaker in front of the band to prevent feedback - but without any monitors, etc I am looking for a way to enable us to hear ourselves a bit. The type of mic I have is a supercardoid (http://en-uk.sennheiser.com/global-d...45_12_2012.pdf) if that helps any.

I guess in time I need to consider monitors of some form, but as that is unlikely to be an option for next week, I wondered if anyone has some advice?

What's the line up? In small situations that don't need a lot of volume, an acoustic duo or trio can often simply set up with the speaker on a tripod stand behind them up just over head height. At small cafe volume levels this is unlikely to cause a lot of feedback problems, although a lot does depend on the particular space. This is a pretty common and very simple way to set up. When volume needs get louder, you do need to put the speaker to the side and at least a little in front of the band. Often if you can manage at the side, you can tilt the speaker in a little to make it easier to hear.

Eventually, a second DBR10 set up to the side on a stand as a side wash monitor would do the trick. Depending on the space you're dealing with, use of a single DBR10 as a wedge might or might not work--you might need two or even three to cover everyone in, say, a trio, and in wedge position you can sometimes cause feedback problems with acoustic guitars (in general, you want to avoid having the monitor sound directed right at the top of the guitar--but a lot depends on what kind of pickup/mic system you're using and of course on the volume you need).

Louis

[swburton]

Originally Posted by lschwart

What's the line up? In small situations that don't need a lot of volume, an acoustic duo or trio can often simply set up with the speaker on a tripod stand behind them up just over head height. At small cafe volume levels this is unlikely to cause a lot of feedback problems, although a lot does depend on the particular space. This is a pretty common and very simple way to set up. When volume needs get louder, you do need to put the speaker to the side and at least a little in front of the band. Often if you can manage at the side, you can tilt the speaker in a little to make it easier to hear.

Eventually, a second DBR10 set up to the side on a stand as a side wash monitor would do the trick. Depending on the space you're dealing with, use of a single DBR10 as a wedge might or might not work--you might need two or even three to cover everyone in, say, a trio, and in wedge position you can sometimes cause feedback problems with acoustic guitars (in general, you want to avoid having the monitor sound directed right at the top of the guitar--but a lot depends on what kind of pickup/mic system you're using and of course on the volume you need).

Louis

There is me with guitar, vocals, BeatBuddy drum pedal, MP3 synth pads (it sounds a lot but works well), plus bassist through his own bass amp, and an un-mic-ed piano. The venue can take about 30-50 people, though numbers likely on the lower side. We will have time to have a quick practice and will try out a few configurations. I may even see if I can find a friend with an active wedge to borrow from.

[swburton]

Here is a link to a quick sketch I made of thoughts on the band setup. The venue is planning to have people in a circle type shape, rather than rows.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s51i0gap64...gram.docx?dl=0

Orange is the pianist, purple is bass, green is myself with pedalboard, red is the speaker, blue is everyone else. The dashed line shows the coverage of the speaker, which is a 90 degree arc. Do you think this would work for us? Should the speaker be more forward?

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by swburton

Here is a link to a quick sketch I made of thoughts on the band setup. The venue is planning to have people in a circle type shape, rather than rows.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s51i0gap64...gram.docx?dl=0

Orange is the pianist, purple is bass, green is myself with pedalboard, red is the speaker, blue is everyone else. The dashed line shows the coverage of the speaker, which is a 90 degree arc. Do you think this would work for us? Should the speaker be more forward?

Depending on how much room you have behind you and whether or not the walls are bare and reflective or curtained, etc in a way that will absorb some sound, you may need to mess around a little with the speaker placement, but some version of the general idea you've sketched out here should work for a quiet gig. I can't tell if the speaker, where you have it in the diagram, is tucked in a corner or not, but that's something that can sometimes cause problems, exaggerating the lower frequencies and causing feedback and muddiness, but it does depend on what else in the corner and other factors.

Another position you might try is to turn the whole set-up you've diagrammed a few clicks counter clockwise, so that you're more centered at one end of the room, and you could put the speaker behind and between you and the piano, centered on the wall behind you, with the sound going out to the room above your head and over your right shoulder. You might also need to move forward a little, if the stage space allows and there's not much room behind you so everyone on stage can hear what's coming out of the speaker.

Remember that the limiting factor here is whether or not sound is getting from the speaker into your mic or making your guitar vibrate enough to cause feedback, so placement of the speaker nearer the unmic'd piano player rather than directly behind you is probably going to give you a little more volume to play with (although in this situation, you may not really need to worry that much). You should engage the HPF on your vocal channel on the ZED, and perhaps on your guitar as well. Normally you would certainly do that for acoustic guitar playing with a bass player and a piano, but I don't know how much low-end your Beat Buddy will need if that's in the guitar signal, so experiment. Engaging that filter for anything that doesn't need a lot of low-end helps keep the mix cleaner and can help with avoiding low frequency feedback. Try not to put the bass amp too close to your mic and the body of your guitar to keep as much of the bass sound as possible out of the speaker.

Louis

[Steve DeRosa]

Originally Posted by swburton

...The settings where it would be used are mainly small groups 20-40 people, but there is potential that I might need amplification in settings of around 80-100 people. In both settings, the crowd will be singing too...

For any room up to 100 with decent acoustics I reach for one of my Rainsong jumbos and go 100% unplugged; if the audience is singing along you're just leading a call-and-response anyway, and it allows you to "work the floor" and get up-close and personal with the crowd as you play - IME a great move if you're looking for return gigs...