Amplification for 30-100 people

[swburton]

Originally Posted by akafloyd

You're getting a lot of great information in this thread! The Loudbox Mini would easily be loud enough for 100 people to hear you, if you need more power/coverage add a powered speaker or two. Are there better systems? Of course. I think you need to nail down how many channels you need, that will be the limiting factor on most combo amp units which commonly have an input for a mic, another for a guitar, and maybe an aux input.

From the discussion above I wonder if the Mini would be enough - after all it will be on ground level and the "crowd" of up to 100 people will be standing, and singing, which the system needs to compete with. So I do wonder if the others are more right in suggesting that the speakers need to be raised...which might mean going with the separate mixer/speaker combo....?

But you raise a good point about inputs. At the very most, I would imagine (including possible expansion): one acoustic guitar, two vocals, one iPad, one BeatBuddy, maybe an electric piano. So a total of six. Maybe a wireless mic for public speaking (away from band area). To my mind this suggests then that the mixer/speaker setup might be best?

Thanks for the input though!

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by swburton

If you had to choose between RCF312As and Yamaha DBR 10s? They are about the same price here on a website I checked. Not sold on anything yet, still just exploring options.

Well, at the same price I'd choose the RCF 312a, but you might consider the 310a over the 312a, if the price is comparable (if they're both new, it ought to be a little less). I say this because the difference in sound between the 10" and the 12" versions is not as profound as you'd expect given the signifiant difference in size (both in terms of cabinet and woofer or bass speaker), and the 310a is significantly lighter in addition to being smaller. For your application I'm not sure that the slightly stronger bass output of the 12" model will make enough of a difference to outweigh the other considerations. That, at least, was my own experience. I had a 312a for a while and liked it very much, but when I went to buy another (to expand into a new PA system for my full band), the particular model had changed, and since I couldn't find a matching speaker for my 12", on a tip from some folks who knew a lot more than me I bought a 310a in the new version that had just been released (Mk III) instead. I was really surprised at how close it was in sound to the 312a. So I sold the 312a and ended up building my PA around a set of 310a's for both mains and monitors, and I've been very happy. I use a small sub with them when the gig requires it.

I have less experience with the DBR speakers, but that DBR 10 is a very nice little PA speaker for the price, and it's even smaller and lighter than the 310a. So, it depends on your priorities.

Louis

[Wyllys]

These guitar amps with mic inputs, mixer and FX are great boxes...but they were never meant to be a PA.

They excel as one-piece, self-monitoring small coffee house type things, especially if the stage is 3 or 4 feet high. That gets them nominally elevated to address a seated crowd. But they're definitely "floor models" as the top mounted controls evidence. Stand-mountable variations put the mixer thingie on the back and towards the bottom.

If I were to use one, I'd pair it with a powered speaker with a couple of mic level inputs, use the amp for guitar and the speaker for the voice. For outdoors or a larger, "party" crowd I'd hang an E906 on the amp and add enough guitar to the vocal speaker to get it up in the air and spread it around a bit.

Lots of options.

[swburton]

Originally Posted by lschwart

Well, at the same price I'd choose the RCF 312a, but you might consider the 310a over the 312a, if the price is comparable (if they're both new, it ought to be a little less). I say this because the difference in sound between the 10" and the 12" versions is not as profound as you'd expect given the signifiant difference in size (both in terms of cabinet and woofer or bass speaker), and the 310a is significantly lighter in addition to being smaller. For your application I'm not sure that the slightly stronger bass output of the 12" model will make enough of a difference to outweigh the other considerations. That, at least, was my own experience. I had a 312a for a while and liked it very much, but when I went to buy another (to expand into a new PA system for my full band), the particular model had changed, and since I couldn't find a matching speaker for my 12", on a tip from some folks who knew a lot more than me I bought a 310a in the new version that had just been released (Mk III) instead. I was really surprised at how close it was in sound to the 312a. So I sold the 312a and ended up building my PA around a set of 310a's for both mains and monitors, and I've been very happy. I use a small sub with them when the gig requires it.

I have less experience with the DBR speakers, but that DBR 10 is a very nice little PA speaker for the price, and it's even smaller and lighter than the 310a. So, it depends on your priorities.

Louis

Thanks, helpful input. You mention two things I'd like to hear a bit more on.

First, when would a sub be needed?

Second, monitors - suggestions for what to use in the situation I describe? Guess more necessary for the bigger setup of around 100? In bands I've played with we've used floor and in-ear monitors, so I've experience of both but never of thinking what to buy or what might be necessary for a personal setup.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by swburton

Thanks, helpful input. You mention two things I'd like to hear a bit more on.

First, when would a sub be needed?

Second, monitors - suggestions for what to use in the situation I describe? Guess more necessary for the bigger setup of around 100? In bands I've played with we've used floor and in-ear monitors, so I've experience of both but never of thinking what to buy or what might be necessary for a personal setup.

The subs are for the band, which includes hand percussion and acoustic bass. For our larger gigs, none of which are really that large, the subs are necessary to amplify the bass and the drums adequately, especially when dancing is part of the event (we're talking about eastern European folk music: Klezmer music, Gypsy songs, etc.). If the show is any larger, it usually means there's a PA system in place (as at a street festival, a large club, or a theater).

I doubt very much that for the sort of thing you describe you'd ever need a sub, but I suppose it depends on how much punch you want the BeatBuddy to have--or maybe if you do start performing with others (an electric keyboard can put out some signifiant bass)--but it will be your volume needs that dictate whether or not your powered speakers alone are adequate).

As a side note, in most of our situations, the bass player just uses a bass amp on stage and I don't put him in the PA at all. This is because, as Wyllys and others could no doubt explain better than I can, bass frequencies radiate out in a sort of omnidirectional way, and this means you don't have to elevate the amp. As what I've said already should make clear, when you need more volume this becomes impractical (the bass amp will be blasting everyone on stage), so you need to put the bass in a PA with subs. In our case, the amp still remains on stage as a bass monitor at more moderate volume.

Which brings me to monitors in general. The long and short of it is that in the situations you're describing you probably won't need monitors. With the speaker up on a pole at the sort of volume levels you'll be using, you will be able to place the speaker either to the side tilted slightly toward you or even above your head and behind you. Again, when the volume needs increase and you start getting feedback, the thing you need to do is to put the speaker (or speakers) out in front of you and use monitors so that you and whoever else your playing with can hear themselves and each other. There are lots of ways to do that, but maybe that's another discussion.

Louis

[swburton]

Thanks Louis that's really helpful, glad not to have to include more at this stage!

[swburton]

Query - someone has suggested the Yamaha DXRs. Do you think they're necessary for my setup/setting? Will the difference in sound quality be noticeable/necessary? For around £700, I can either get two DBR10s with stands, cables and covers - or I can get one DXR12 with stand, cable and cover. Thoughts? I'd need to add another £670 at a later date to get a second DXR12 (or could buy both now for £1200 - so £500 jump from the DBR10s).

[Irish Pennant]

Originally Posted by swburton

Query - someone has suggested the Yamaha DXRs. Do you think they're necessary for my setup/setting? Will the difference in sound quality be noticeable/necessary? For around £700, I can either get two DBR10s with stands, cables and covers - or I can get one DXR12 with stand, cable and cover. Thoughts? I'd need to add another £670 at a later date to get a second DXR12 (or could buy both now for £1200 - so £500 jump from the DBR10s).

I started my second PA system with a Zed 10 fx and a pair of Yamaha DBR12s. I've added a DBR 10 for a floor monitor, a Zed 60-14 FX mixer for added inputs, a Fishman Loudbox Mini that I sometimes use with the PA system when I want a different flavor of acoustic sound or for a second floor monitor. This system is modular, sounds good, has many different configurations and it can be bought piecemeal. With this system you can configure a set up that will cover anything from a small coffee shop setting to a decent sized outdoor wedding.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by swburton

Query - someone has suggested the Yamaha DXRs. Do you think they're necessary for my setup/setting? Will the difference in sound quality be noticeable/necessary? For around £700, I can either get two DBR10s with stands, cables and covers - or I can get one DXR12 with stand, cable and cover. Thoughts? I'd need to add another £670 at a later date to get a second DXR12 (or could buy both now for £1200 - so £500 jump from the DBR10s).

The main differences between the DXR and DBR speakers, as I understand it, are the build quality, the quality of some of the components themselves, and the features of the onboard mixer/input section. The DXR speakers are heavier, their cabinets are made of a tougher material, which I imagine has some acoustic effect, although they apparently scratch easily. They are perhaps more likely to last longer. The basic electronic design, processing and etc. is apparently very similar to the DBR line, so while there are some sonic differences, they're not huge. Basically, the DBRs are similar speakers manufactured to sell at a lower price point and to appeal to buyers looking for something even smaller and/or lighter than the DXRs and willing to live with the other things that come with a more cheaply made item.

If you can, give them a listen at a store or buy both from a store with a good return policy and pick the one that has the right balance of cost, size, weight, build quality and function for you.

Louis

[Irish Pennant]

Originally Posted by lschwart

Basically, the DBRs are similar speakers manufactured to sell at a lower price point and to appeal to buyers looking for something even smaller and/or lighter than the DXRs and willing to live with the other things that come with a more cheaply made item.
Louis

I've had my DBRs for a couple of years now, they may be built for a lower price point but I've yet to discover the "Cheaply Made" part of them. They are a good mid-range (price point) speaker. I don't abuse them, I don't try to play them at max output (I've never had to), 3/4 max yes, so maybe I just haven't entered the threshold of where the cheaply made part exist.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by Irish Pennant

I've had my DBRs for a couple of years now, they may be built for a lower price point but I've yet to discover the "Cheaply Made" part of them. They are a good mid-range (price point) speaker. I don't abuse them, I don't try to play them at max output (I've never had to), 3/4 max yes, so maybe I just haven't entered the threshold of where the cheaply made part exist.

I didn't mean to denigrate them. I like them. But swburton asked for some comparative information. The DBRs are more cheaply made than the DXRs. You're right that that doesn't make them "cheap" in the derogatory sense, but they don't have as high a quality build as the DXRs, which in turn don't have as high a quality build as the DSR line, etc..... All that does have an effect on how the speakers sound when they're driven toward their maximum output, but also on durability and even cosmetics. If you treat them well and use them within appropriate limits, the DBRs will do a great job in a number of smaller-scale situations. If you're on a budget, I think they're a no brainer choice.

Just trying to provide some relative points of comparison to maybe help him to weigh his alternatives according to his own priorities.

Louis

[Irish Pennant]

Originally Posted by lschwart

I didn't mean to denigrate them. I like them. But swburton asked for some comparative information. The DBRs are more cheaply made than the DXRs. You're right that that doesn't make them "cheap" in the derogatory sense, but they don't have as high a quality build as the DXRs, which in turn don't have as high a quality build as the DSR line, etc..... All that does have an effect on how the speakers sound when they're driven toward their maximum output, but also on durability and even cosmetics. If you treat them well and use them within appropriate limits, the DBRs will do a great job in a number of smaller-scale situations. If you're on a budget, I think they're a no brainer choice.

Just trying to provide some relative points of comparison to maybe help him to weigh his alternatives according to his own priorities.

Louis

I'm not being defensive about it, just trying to help out others that may be reading this thread. When someone reads "Cheaply Made" it put's the product in a negative cogitation. The DBR is built to compete at it's price point and is built as good or better than many of it's competitors within that price point. The OP stated that he could buy two DBR 10s with gear for the same price as one DXR 12. IMO, at the DXR price point, I would by the QSC brand in either the 10 inch or pay a little more and get the 12", I prefer 12" speakers, this is why I ended up buying the DBR12s, a pair of QSC12's was more than I was budgeted for.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by Irish Pennant

I'm not being defensive about it, just trying to help out others that may be reading this thread. When someone reads "Cheaply Made" it put's the product in a negative cogitation. The DBR is built to compete at it's price point and is built as good or better than many of it's competitors within that price point. The OP stated that he could buy two DBR 10s with gear for the same price as one DXR 12. IMO, at the DXR price point, I would by the QSC brand in either the 10 inch or pay a little more and get the 12", I prefer 12" speakers, this is why I ended up buying the DBR12s, a pair of QSC12's was more than I was budgeted for.

I agree about the place the DBRs hold at their price point. I think for about $100 more (in the US, at least) the RCF 310a is a better speaker (better made, better sounding loud), but even so, the DBR 10 has some advantages in terms of size, weight, and features that compensate for that and might make it a better choice for more reasons than just the 100 bucks. Just one example: the DBR has a DSP switch that makes it much easier to use as a floor wedge if you don't have separate EQ control of your monitor output (true of most small analogue boards used by performers operating on a small local scale) and a built-in HPF that makes it easier to use with a sub if you don't have an external crossover (or one in your subs).

Louis

[swburton]

Originally Posted by lschwart

I agree about the place the DBRs hold at their price point. I think for about $100 more (in the US, at least) the RCF 310a is a better speaker (better made, better sounding loud), but even so, the DBR 10 has some advantages in terms of size, weight, and features that compensate for that and might make it a better choice for more reasons than just the 100 bucks. Just one example: the DBR has a DSP switch that makes it much easier to use as a floor wedge if you don't have separate EQ control of your monitor output (true of most small analogue boards used by performers operating on a small local scale) and a built-in HPF that makes it easier to use with a sub if you don't have an external crossover (or one in your subs).

Louis

It's sounding like the DBRs would be suitable enough for my situation. Now to figure out whether to go for DBR10s, RCF 310As or RCF 312As...guess that's where the testing will have to come in!

[swburton]

hi all, haven't made progress yet on this as been doing some more thinking and weighing of prices. A thought came to mind...

If I were to build up things a piece or two at a time, would it be sufficient to get a speaker, then add in the mixer, additional speaker, etc over time?

I had been wondering about getting the DXR10, as it allows for three inputs straight into the back, thus no need for mixer, and would be much more portable. But then I wondered about lack of EQ control (my guitar pickup doesn't have EQ control) and whether the sound would be to my liking.

My plan is to go into a store tomorrow to try out some gear. I think I'll start with everything (guitar, vocals, iPad mp3) straight into the DXRs. I guess if the sound isn't to my liking, it would seem better to go with a DBR10 with the ZED10FX mixer. The DXR10 is £449; the DBR10/ZED10FX combo is £596.

Anyone any thoughts? Should I just bite the bullet and go for the more pricey option first?