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  #16  
Old 01-12-2017, 11:23 AM
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murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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Originally Posted by merlin666 View Post
And in a similar vein they also pioneered guitar mass production as we know it today with modern quality control measures, CNC technology, bolt-on necks, carbon fibre truss rods etc.
Which Ovation guitars had bolt-on necks ?
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  #17  
Old 01-12-2017, 12:31 PM
merlin666 merlin666 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murrmac123 View Post
Which Ovation guitars had bolt-on necks ?
I think pretty much all the US made models from about late 70's/early 80s up to today. Probably started when the necks got the Kaman-bar in their first Adamas models and rolled out to all other models a few years later as well. Though most if not all of the Asian built guitars have set necks.
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  #18  
Old 01-12-2017, 12:49 PM
muscmp muscmp is offline
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very good source-wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_guitar
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  #19  
Old 01-12-2017, 02:14 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
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Martin's designs were European in origin. His early work was based on that of his teacher, Stauffer, of Vienna. A god case can be made that he got the idea for X-bracing from the English 'guittar'; a type of cittern that was popular around 1770. I've been helping a student restore an X-braced guittar from ca. 1780, and Martin was familiar with the work of English makers who may have used the same system on 'Spanish' style guitars.

It often seems that the great masters of many crafts were not actually originators so much as 'optimizers'. Most of Stradivari's design features came from his teacher, Nicolo Amati, and the great J.S. Bach didn't invent the musical forms he used, he 'only' perfected them. Somogyi's great innovation was to change the shape of a Dreadnought so that it had a more pronounced waist. And so it goes.
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  #20  
Old 01-12-2017, 07:55 PM
Itzkinguitars Itzkinguitars is offline
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Torres' classical guitars seem to have developed independently of the steel string guitar's inception. While Martin has largely defined what a flat top steel string guitar is, I think it's important to note that Martin didn't begin large scale production of "steel string" guitars until 1923 with the introduction of the 2-17. By 1927 all models unless otherwise noted shipped with steel strings. The Larsons of Chicago seem to have been building innovative steel string guitars at the turn of the 20th century thru the 1940s. While Martin built lightly built instruments for gut strings the Larsons were busy experimenting with rigid metal tubes inside their guitars, laminated bracing to handle the additional tension of steel strings, and creating instruments that are rather modern in design.

Also of note is that metal strings are not a recent invention. Instruments made in the baroque and renaissance period (see citern and orpharion) and steel string guitars have existed prior to the 20th century.

It seems that the influence of Torres hasn't been seen in steel string construction until recently with makers like Somogyi and his students. Somogyi's designs seem to borrow a lot from Torres' ideas with everything from the classical-esque shapes, to the very thin soundboards designed for optimal responsiveness playing very much into the late 19th century-20th century classical tradition.
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  #21  
Old 01-12-2017, 08:34 PM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Somogyi started out as a classical and Flamenco Luthier and as a result when he was asked to build steel string guitars by the windham Hill guitars he would have naturally adopted the techniques in classical guitar building to building his modified steel string guitars. Which would have been fortuitous because better intonation better balance as well as more responsiveness are Hallmarks of the classical guitar. Certainly i find that the somogyi does feel and sound a little like a classical guitar.

However apart from his heel design which seems influenced by the Spanish heel and the double sides which come from classical influence such as by Friedrich, did somogyi also adopt the torres fan bracing? I have not seen any image of his bracing on the net but I recall reading somewhere that his top bracing is a modified version of Martin's X brace. I may be wrong in this of course.

I believe bashkin, Fischer and prs guitars have fan bracing a la Torres but fan bracing does not seem to be widely adopted in steel string luthiers otherwise.

On the Larson guitars, but for a failure of marketing, would Larson guitars be in the market leading position of Martin today? They had radical ideas for their time...in particular I wonder what so few luthiers have adopted the tube running from.necl block to end block. Replace the metal tube with carbon fiber, and it seems to me that neck resets would become far less common? A recent dehradun guitar that was posted on agf had this idea in material form.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Itzkinguitars View Post
Torres' classical guitars seem to have developed independently of the steel string guitar's inception. While Martin has largely defined what a flat top steel string guitar is, I think it's important to note that Martin didn't begin large scale production of "steel string" guitars until 1923 with the introduction of the 2-17. By 1927 all models unless otherwise noted shipped with steel strings. The Larsons of Chicago seem to have been building innovative steel string guitars at the turn of the 20th century thru the 1940s. While Martin built lightly built instruments for gut strings the Larsons were busy experimenting with rigid metal tubes inside their guitars, laminated bracing to handle the additional tension of steel strings, and creating instruments that are rather modern in design.

Also of note is that metal strings are not a recent invention. Instruments made in the baroque and renaissance period (see citern and orpharion) and steel string guitars have existed prior to the 20th century.

It seems that the influence of Torres hasn't been seen in steel string construction until recently with makers like Somogyi and his students. Somogyi's designs seem to borrow a lot from Torres' ideas with everything from the classical-esque shapes, to the very thin soundboards designed for optimal responsiveness playing very much into the late 19th century-20th century classical tradition.

Last edited by gitarro; 01-12-2017 at 08:39 PM.
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  #22  
Old 01-12-2017, 08:56 PM
Itzkinguitars Itzkinguitars is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitarro View Post
However apart from his heel design which seems influenced by the Spanish heel and the double sides which come from classical influence such as by Friedrich, did somogyi also adopt the torres fan bracing? I have not seen any image of his bracing on the net but I recall reading somewhere that his top bracing is a modified version of Martin's X brace. I may be wrong in this of course.

I believe bashkin, Fischer and prs guitars have fan bracing a la Torres but fan bracing does not seem to be widely adopted in steel string luthiers otherwise.
I think the influence of Torres and the spanish makers can be seen more so in the thinness of Somogyi's construction. Somogyi's plates are far thinner than nearly everyone else's and have more in common with a lightly built classical guitar than say a D-28

With the exception of some early martin steel string guitars (most notably the early Ditson 111 dreadnought), fan bracing has not really been utilized in steel string construction. As observed by Torres' different fan systems (Torres didn't invent fan bracing, there are "spanish" style CF Martin guitars built with fan bracing prior to Torres), Torres seems to have viewed fan struts as a way of controlling the guitars tone and not as a structural element. This idea is further shown by the 1863 Torres guitar that lacks any fan struts presumably due to its small size (https://www.vintageguitar.com/3434/a...e-torres-1863/)

Somogyi has used fan struts as tonebars below the X brace though, and the luthiers you've mentioned do the same. All use the X brace as the primary structural brace however.

Here's the inside of a Bashkin guitar to demonstrate
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  #23  
Old 01-12-2017, 09:00 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Interesting topic.

Inspiration comes in many forms and there's a ton to be said for all of the previous posts, but I'll throw something a bit different out.

Do consider the beautifully done "coffee table" book (with companion CD) documenting the build philosophy and thought processes of Danny Ferrington. Some may dismiss him as a top-tier builder, but more than anything else, it challenges those who feel like they've reached an understanding or the art of luthiery to examine the entire methodology of instrument construction.

Worth tracking down, I consider this truly as a "Hove you ever been experianced?" read. It might stay on your table a long time, but it will stay in your mind much, much longer.

https://www.amazon.com/Ferrington-Gu.../dp/0060992689
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  #24  
Old 01-12-2017, 11:47 PM
geordie1 geordie1 is offline
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I interviewed Gerard Gilet - a well regarded Australia luthier a few years back, he's a wealth of knowledge about the Aussie guitar scene. One of the biggest influences on the scene was actually Charles Fox - a couple of Australians trained with him in the 70's or 80's and went back with what they learned.

Sadly i lost the interview - it was an hour long talk on the history of Australian guitar making. Brilliant.

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  #25  
Old 01-13-2017, 01:33 AM
gitarro gitarro is offline
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Geordie have you band other english luthiers been influenced by gilet and his coauthor trevor gore? If so then there is a reverse flow of ideas back to Europe from.australia...
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  #26  
Old 01-13-2017, 09:24 AM
merlin666 merlin666 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitarro View Post
I believe bashkin, Fischer and prs guitars have fan bracing a la Torres but fan bracing does not seem to be widely adopted in steel string luthiers otherwise.
I don't know about small boutique luthiers but various forms of fan bracing have certainly been used in steel string guitar mass production. For example, Ovation used a type of fan bracing on their early 12-strings, and when they introduced guitars without a center soundhole (Adamas, Elite) they also used a modified fan bracing pattern. See these images as examples of the historical Ovation bracings:

http://www.ovationtribute.com/Ovatio...20Bracing.html
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  #27  
Old 01-13-2017, 09:44 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy4 View Post
Do consider the beautifully done "coffee table" book (with companion CD) documenting the build philosophy and thought processes of Danny Ferrington. Some may dismiss him as a top-tier builder, but more than anything else, it challenges those who feel like they've reached an understanding or the art of luthiery to examine the entire methodology of instrument construction.

Worth tracking down, I consider this truly as a "Hove you ever been experianced?" read. It might stay on your table a long time, but it will stay in your mind much, much longer.
Upon reading your post, I pulled out my copy, having not looked at it since the early 1990's when my mother gave it to me as a gift. I found it as uninspiring now as I did then. But, that's just me.
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  #28  
Old 01-13-2017, 09:49 AM
Laughingboy68 Laughingboy68 is offline
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Just throwing this out there. Where does Taylor fit in this discussion?
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  #29  
Old 01-13-2017, 09:52 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geordie1 View Post
One of the biggest influences on the scene was actually Charles Fox - a couple of Australians trained with him in the 70's or 80's and went back with what they learned.
Much of the Canadian guitar making scene is derived from Edgar Monch, a classical guitar maker who lived in Toronto Canada for a time before returning to Germany. He taught Larrivee who taught ....

I got my start studying with Charles Fox, though I learned much from the "Larrivee school" of builders.

Both have had a large influence on many modern builders, small and large.
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