An interesting thing about music business

[grim83]

I have to disagree with a majority of the people here the industry controls who the stars are or are not for whatever reason but given the chance the audience picks something entirely different. I mean look at Bill withers he came out of nowhere and did it his way and people ate it up he became alienated by the industry and just quit. Shoot look at the CMA's this year I dint think I saw but one George strait single last year and it didn't get much play compared to Florida-Georgia line or aldean or any of those bs "country" singers yet he easily one entertainer of the year when people voted.

[Legolas1971]

Originally Posted by grim83

I have to disagree with a majority of the people here the industry controls who the stars are or are not for whatever reason but given the chance the audience picks something entirely different. I mean look at Bill withers he came out of nowhere and did it his way and people ate it up he became alienated by the industry and just quit. Shoot look at the CMA's this year I dint think I saw but one George strait single last year and it didn't get much play compared to Florida-Georgia line or aldean or any of those bs "country" singers yet he easily one entertainer of the year when people voted.

"I Drive your truck" won Song of the Year at the CMA's. That was the best song
by far. Is it the best song ever written no......There's no award for that one

[MJRB]

Originally Posted by roylor4

Music and movies have been doing this for a long time. How many of us have seen old Elvis movies when he was playing an acoustic guitar while the sweet sound of a Strat through a deluxe reverb came out? It was idiotic then, so much so they didn't even try to hide it. Ain't no different now - it's just gotten a lot worse.

I don't think any adult watches a performance where the headliner is rigorously dancing with a bunch of stripper looking dancers for minutes at a time and never gets tired or winded and never affects their voice and thinks ANY of it is real.

To be a pop star now, all it really takes is a big company to back you, a good face and body and lots of lip synching and dancing lessons. Kind of a shame too. I just went to a music festival this past weekend that had tons of talented performers. Most of them won't make it big even though they should because they don't have the right "look".

My car radio stays on NPR. I will continue to feed my hunger for live music at small festivals and other venues. REAL music from REAL people. Imperfect faces and bodies with voices infused with joy and soul - that's REAL music.

Thanks.
That was one of the reasons that I started this thread. I only go to small local shows now, partly because I don't want to pay the ticket prices on the "big names", but mainly because that is where I can find real music.
MJRB

[MJRB]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

And there you have it.

Too many people want a "show" instead of live music.

Bingo.

I never did like pyrotechnics and circus performances.
MJRB

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by MJRB

Bingo.

I never did like pyrotechnics and circus performances.
MJRB

I'm a professional juggler that prefers small, real, live music performances. go figure...

[harmonics101]

So Taylor Swift uses auto tune ? Who cares ?

I'm sorry if people feel bitter that she's making more money , even if she uses auto tune , whatever

H

[Chicago Sandy]

Video killed the radio star. Oh-uh oh.........

Gotta ask yourself: why are you drawn to a particular artist, and why do you want to buy THAT album or attend THAT concert? Does anyone buy a Black Eyed Peas CD because they love Will i.am's and Fergie's intimate live no-effects vocals? Does anyone go to see Britney Spears, Madonna, Lady Gaga or Miley Cyrus, expecting them to stand stock still alone onstage in front of a piano, and croon into a microphone on a stand? I can just imagine a Lady Gaga concert consisting of two sets of her dressed normally, sitting at the piano with no dancers, elaborate sets, or pyro. Oh, wait--there wouldn't be a second set: her devoted "Little Monsters" would storm out after the fourth or fifth song. Heck, even most rappers employ larger dance troupes than does the Bolshoi Ballet. Conversely, if you went to see Renee Fleming, Harry Connick, Jr., Patty Griffin or Steve Earle and they tried to mount that kind of hoo-hah (whether or not they inconceivably lip-synced or live-pitch-corrected), you'd probably spend the rest of the show in the lobby bar (if you didn't flat out leave the theater).

No, spectacle is what those artists' (not the latter four's) fans demand and what fills the theaters & arenas. It takes so much energy to perform the kind of choreography a Spears, Cyrus or Gaga show features that the only way it can be done is to sacrifice either the star's live dancing (hence the huge backup-dancer contingent) or the live singing (hence the lip-syncing). And sometimes the audience wants it all--an army of dancers AND their own hero or heroine matching them step for step, arm-wave for arm-wave. When Justin Bieber's adoring tweenie fans squeal for him at the top of their lungs, and expect him to constantly roam a huge stage to make contact with as many of them (okay, even the first couple of arena rows) as possible, would they even hear his little voice (however sweet it may debatably be unadorned) no matter how loudly the P.A. is turned up? No, they'd probably hear him panting and trying to catch his breath (as with Britney in her clip in the RT feature on YouTube).

Those who ask, "yeah, well, what about Broadway?" Watch next time--do you hear Sutton Foster or Norbert Leo Butz belting (accurately or not) at the top of their lungs while simultaneously executing blindingly fast tap and complex dance moves? No, hence the "dance break"--because Broadway fans know what is and isn't possible and will brook no compromises in their stars' singing or dancing. Let's face it: we get the shows we expect, demand and deserve.

Originally Posted by ntotoro

They don't even need to write their own songs. How many bands do you see call Desmond Child or Jennifer Warnes to write songs for them?

Actually, I think you meant "Diane Warren." Jennifer Warnes wasn't a songwriter, but rather one of the finest interpreters of other songwriters' material (check out her Leonard Cohen tribute CD Famous Blue Raincoat, which gave her a gold single with her cover of "First We Take Manhattan").

Originally Posted by ntotoro

I really don't feel the talent pool is as deep and it's because it doesn't have to be. The session players don't need to exist the way they used to.

With all due respect, baloney. Just because the "Wrecking Crew" as an entity is gone doesn't mean that there aren't still hundreds of heavily-in-demand session players working brilliantly and anonymously for triple scale in Nashville, NYC, L.A. London, and Miami these days. There are just more of them, and more crackerjack record producers and engineers, now that recording technology has become so advanced yet affordable that hit records are being made all over the world these days without having to resort to $200+/hr. studios and high-profile Svengali producers.

And that's just the top-of-the-charts world. The talent pool for session players and backing singers is SO deep these days that tens of thousands of brilliant ones are working for modest wages and turning good records into great ones, in almost every genre in which a solo artist or band decides not to go it alone in the studio (or foregoes self-overdubs in favor of the subtle variations and nuances in texture and tone that come from having other voices harmonize with the lead singer...provided they're willing to pay side musician/singers). There will always be more great players than there is work to be had.

(more in the next post)

[Athana]

The suits take great pride in turning any rubbish into a "star".
They are masters at it.
They dont have to pay for genuine talent and they can discard as they please, as they "made" the star in the first place.
A customer of ours in NY was a recording engineer and said that one day when he retires he'll write a book.
He said J Lo can so hardly sing its ridiculous.Its all fake..(and can you believe it she sits as judge on a singing talent contest).

[Athana]

Originally Posted by Legolas1971

"I Drive your truck" won Song of the Year at the CMA's. That was the best song
by far. Is it the best song ever written no......There's no award for that one

They need to change out the judges if thats they're best Country song of the year.

[Athana]

Originally Posted by grim83

I have to disagree with a majority of the people here the industry controls who the stars are or are not for whatever reason but given the chance the audience picks something entirely different. I mean look at Bill withers he came out of nowhere and did it his way and people ate it up he became alienated by the industry and just quit. Shoot look at the CMA's this year I dint think I saw but one George strait single last year and it didn't get much play compared to Florida-Georgia line or aldean or any of those bs "country" singers yet he easily one entertainer of the year when people voted.

Things were very different when Bill Withers came up.

[Legolas1971]

Originally Posted by Chicago Sandy

Video killed the radio star. Oh-uh oh.........

Gotta ask yourself: why are you drawn to a particular artist, and why do you want to buy THAT album or attend THAT concert? Does anyone buy a Black Eyed Peas CD because they love Will i.am's and Fergie's intimate live no-effects vocals? Does anyone go to see Britney Spears, Madonna, Lady Gaga or Miley Cyrus, expecting them to stand stock still alone onstage in front of a piano, and croon into a microphone on a stand? I can just imagine a Lady Gaga concert consisting of two sets of her dressed normally, sitting at the piano with no dancers, elaborate sets, or pyro. Oh, wait--there wouldn't be a second set: her devoted "Little Monsters" would storm out after the fourth or fifth song. Heck, even most rappers employ larger dance troupes than does the Bolshoi Ballet. Conversely, if you went to see Renee Fleming, Harry Connick, Jr., Patty Griffin or Steve Earle and they tried to mount that kind of hoo-hah (whether or not they inconceivably lip-synced or live-pitch-corrected), you'd probably spend the rest of the show in the lobby bar (if you didn't flat out leave the theater).

No, spectacle is what those artists' (not the latter four's) fans demand and what fills the theaters & arenas. It takes so much energy to perform the kind of choreography a Spears, Cyrus or Gaga show features that the only way it can be done is to sacrifice either the star's live dancing (hence the huge backup-dancer contingent) or the live singing (hence the lip-syncing). And sometimes the audience wants it all--an army of dancers AND their own hero or heroine matching them step for step, arm-wave for arm-wave. When Justin Bieber's adoring tweenie fans squeal for him at the top of their lungs, and expect him to constantly roam a huge stage to make contact with as many of them (okay, even the first couple of arena rows) as possible, would they even hear his little voice (however sweet it may debatably be unadorned) no matter how loudly the P.A. is turned up? No, they'd probably hear him panting and trying to catch his breath (as with Britney in her clip in the RT feature on YouTube).

Those who ask, "yeah, well, what about Broadway?" Watch next time--do you hear Sutton Foster or Norbert Leo Butz belting (accurately or not) at the top of their lungs while simultaneously executing blindingly fast tap and complex dance moves? No, hence the "dance break"--because Broadway fans know what is and isn't possible and will brook no compromises in their stars' singing or dancing. Let's face it: we get the shows we expect, demand and deserve.



Actually, I think you meant "Diane Warren." Jennifer Warnes wasn't a songwriter, but rather one of the finest interpreters of other songwriters' material (check out her Leonard Cohen tribute CD Famous Blue Raincoat, which gave her a gold single with her cover of "First We Take Manhattan."


With all due respect, baloney. Just because the "Wrecking Crew" as an entity is gone doesn't mean that there aren't still hundreds of heavily-in-demand session players working brilliantly and anonymously for triple scale in Nashville, NYC, L.A. London, and Miami these days. There are just more of them, and more crackerjack record producers and engineers, now that recording technology has become so advanced yet affordable that hit records are being made all over the world these days without having to resort to $200+/hr. studios and high-profile Svengali producers.

And that's just the top-of-the-charts world. The talent pool for session players and backing singers is SO deep these days that tens of thousands of brilliant ones are working for modest wages and turning good records into great ones, in almost every genre in which a solo artist or band decides not to go it alone in the studio (or foregoes self-overdubs in favor of the subtle variations and nuances in texture and tone that come from having other voices harmonize with the lead singer...provided they're willing to pay side musician/singers). There will always be more great players than there is work to be had.

(more in the next post)

Very well written

[Legolas1971]

Originally Posted by Athana

Things were very different when Bill Withers came up.

Also, I'm not gonna feel bad for Mr. Strait. He has sold tens of millions of records and is a very wealthy man. His career has been wildly successful....

[Chicago Sandy]

There are also technical factors that require even the best, steadiest-of-pitch and most talented performers to occasionally resort to pre-recording. Take that Beyoncé performance at the last inaugural, or just about any Super Bowl halftime show. When you're dealing with possible weather issues and a humongous space over which sound will be projected (up to a half-mile)--much less a broadcast feed, you're gonna get maddening delay issues. (Listen to the National Anthem singer while watching the Jumbotron next time you go to a major sporting event--chances are the sound and the video are gonna be off-kilter if the singer is performing live). Beyoncé set all doubts to rest at her press conference with that repeat of her anthem performance--this time a cappella, in a closed room, absolutely on-key.

I find it ironic that Elton John was used as a shining example of an artist who never lip-syncs or live-pitch-corrects. On his PBS special last summer, not only was he pitchy as all get-out but utterly unintelligible. ("Good bye, yellow brick road" came out "Oo-ah, ellebee yo"). But that's okay. We cut him slack. He's almost 70, we love his songs, he plays piano like nobody's business and we all saw him be spot-on back in the day. And we knew he was working live without a net, fronting a wonderful but loud full rock band. We didn't expect to hear everything exactly it was on the records, nor did we expect him to leap all over the stage and up on to the piano and simultaneously sing and execute a dance routine that would drive a Red-Bull-fueled aerobics instructor to tears.

BTW, just hauled out my copy of CSNY's Four Way Street double live album, and cued up "Wooden Ships." OUCH. Amazing what we put up with back then, before there was live pitch-correction, when studios used 2" analog tape edited with razor blades and scotch tape, and when lip-sync was for kooky talent-show acts. (Or maybe we were stoned--it WAS 1970). Amazing that the Beatles were able to harmonize perfectly, live over the screams the way they did with no monitors, or that Springsteen can leap and sing like he does at almost 65 with no backing tracks (or do we just not wanna know?). My first engineer once played me one of Joni Mitchell's basic vocal tracks from her Clouds album--no reverb or compression, no punch-ins. Do we really want to see our emperors buck naked, or are some clothes desirable?

About pitch correction: it's a tool and sometimes also a deliberate effect (e.g., will i. am, Cher, even Adam Levine). All tools can be precisely and judiciously used, or carelessly and/or egregiously abused or overused. Several Nashville engineers have admitted that every major-label artist is auto-tuned on their studio albums, because critics and fans alike demand absolute vocal perfection. And Nashville is full of engineers who can pitch-correct even fractions of notes after the fact with surgical precision, to the point where it's undetectable except when A/B'ed with the pitchy raw vocal track. There's a reason why so many major-label producers won't let the lead talent into the studio during mixing, much less mastering--many singers don't even know the extent to which they're being tuned (and would scream bloody murder if they did--and if they got their way, wonder why sales weren't up to par). And unless the artifacts during the tuning process are exposed (as in the RT video clip)--or deliberately used as effects as with many of today's pop and urban stars--nobody's the wiser. Heck, even many of the stars you hear perform live in concert today--at major concerts--have real-time pitch correction in their signal chain. Unless they are SO off-key that the artifacts can't be avoided, nobody can tell.

The only time you can be absolutely certain there are no effects or pitch correction is at a small intimate venue, with a simple P.A. or no P.A. at all. (Even "live" albums nowadays are often "sweetened"--and you'd be surprised at the caliber of artists who use it--when used properly, it doesn't interfere with emotion or spontaneity in an artist's performance).

BTW, why is it any less honorable to use subtle pitch-correction in the mix than to do multiple punch-ins and retries, or cut-and-paste together songs from various takes? That's artifice, too. Same result in the end, just at different cost to budgets and frayed nerves. A good recording is a good recording. Is an artist more talented if he or she can record direct-to-disk in a single take (on a wax cylinder)? Would you pitch your favorite CDs in the trash if you learned the artist punched in his or her vocals or guitar solos several times until (s)he was satisfied, or that said vocal (as in the Who's "Eminence Front") or solo (as in the Police's "Driven to Tears") came from a different take than the rest of the song? Listen to both--you can hear the edits.

You want absolute, unadulterated unedited vocal and instrumental perfection, or at least nakedly honest yet pleasing performances? Support your local artists at coffeehouses and house concerts! (And now back to your regularly-scheduled programming.....)

[Davis Webb]

Okay, the cool thing is, I now forgive myself for my off notes....

On a related theme, if you have not heard Chicago Sandy's originals, done on her humble H2N recorder, in one take, you ought to. Sandy, without auto tune, without effects, without a backup band, captivates you from the get go. Not only is her songwriting fantastic, but her voice suits it perfectly. I am a huge fan.

So, no, you don't need any fancy crappo to produce great music. Just a decent amount of practice and work.

[Legolas1971]

Originally Posted by Athana

They need to change out the judges if thats they're best Country song of the year.

i wish I had written it.....