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View Poll Results: Will The Major Guitar Companies Embrace Carbon As A Future Construction Material?
NEVER! This is against their traditions and their very beings! 22 18.49%
POSSIBLY! They will do it if deemed necessary to survive in the marketplace! 70 58.82%
ABSOLUTELY! To survive and/or supplement revenues from their traditional wooden guitars! 20 16.81%
DUMB POLL! If a higher power deemed guitars to be made of carbon, there would be carbon trees! 7 5.88%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll

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  #76  
Old 01-09-2010, 05:46 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by drbluegrass View Post
Bottom line for me is I would very much like to have a composite guitar that sounds and plays almost as good as my Collings D-1A, that I can toss in the trunk of my car, not have to worry about moisture, humidity, and dings, and that costs maybe $1500, certainly not more than $2000 (new). But I'm just not sure how realistic that is? Does CA really make something that meets that criteria (all, not just part of it)?


Tom
Hi Tom & All,

I suggest you should try to locate a dealer where you can play a carbon guitar. You'll probably find the tone a bit different than a fine wooden guitar but, hopefully, in a good way. Carbon guitars tend to lend a clarity of tone to a guitar due to less high midrange- and treble-frequency attenuation than wood. I call this characteristic "crystalline shimmer" and find it very pleasing. Carbon guitars can be tone-shaped via the addition of light-weight bracing patterns as does Composite Acoustics or via Tone Layering or thicknessing of the carbon laminate top in various areas as does RainSong. Let me state that these methods of tone manipulation are NOT needed for strengthening the top but only for tone coloring.

A typical RainSong DR1000 dreadnought, which I have, or CA Legacy dreadnought, especially the new Tim Stafford Signature Model, which I've had, will have a well-balanced tonal spectrum with a strong bass, clear mid-range and treble clarity all of which are presented in a respectably loud package. A RainSong DR1000 and CA Tim Stafford dreadnought acoustic-electrics are competitively street-priced in the Martin HDC-16RE/Martin DC-28E/Martin DC Aura price range. Composite Acoustics offers their higher-cost, all-gloss-finished models in acoustic-electric RAW finish models that puts them in the street-price range of the new Martin 1 Series and the Martin 15 Series acoustic-electrics.

Carbon guitars, in their various body-styles are fully-professional grade instruments that won't be a totally foreign experience for a player being introduced to one for the first time, tonewise or playabilitywise, when compared to their fine wooden guitar body-style counterparts. Is it me or do all guitars--regardless of construction materials and of a like body-style--sound about 90% the same? Must be a strings and general body-shape thing, I guess? Indeed, although carbon guitars have kind of a distinct tonal characteristic, when all is said and done, I feel their tone should be included in the tonal palettes of all acoustic guitars and NOT apart from it. Look at all the different wooden guitar companies and luthiers, all offering their own take on guitar construction and tone. A player just might prefer the tone of a carbon guitar to like-body-style wooden guitars by some makers.

One last point. I believe that carbon guitars are fine acoustic instruments and although they offer an immunity to humidity issues, are most likely more immune to damage from temperature variations, and offer more durabilty from small to moderate impacts compared to wooden guitars, I feel they should be treated with the same respect as a fine wooden guitar. They can be damaged by impacts, especially by sharp objects, but the general knocks and falls that would surely damage a wooden guitar will most likely only leave a finish scar or ding on a carbon guitar. Although they offer more peace-of-mind than a wooden guitar, they shouldn't be mistreated.

Regards,

SpruceTop
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Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2

Last edited by SpruceTop; 01-09-2010 at 09:34 PM.
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  #77  
Old 01-09-2010, 06:18 PM
chistrummer chistrummer is offline
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Originally Posted by drbluegrass View Post
I think any company (including CA) that manufactures only carbon fiber guitars is doomed to fail. They will either need to add traditional wooden instruments to their line or be acquired by an established company (like Fender) to survive long term. The main problem I see with CA is the cost. IMHO, they're almost $1000 beyond what the "average guitar player" will spend on a carbon fiber guitar/non-traditional guitar.
You got that backwards. I think "established" companies better learn how to build some carbon guitars before they find themselves extinct.

Quote:
For me, a carbon fiber guitar is a guitar I'd like to have when playing outdoors and conditions may be hard on a fine traditional wooden guitar. Before I make the following statement let me qualify it by stating I've never played or heard a carbon fiber guitar live, except for an occasional Ovation years ago.
Well then you are not qualified to comment are you?

BTW, higher end CA and Rainsong prices are about where a Martin 16 series is, (which to many of us are not true Martins) and I can get an OX RAW for less than a Martin 000-15 and have a better guitar.
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  #78  
Old 01-09-2010, 07:45 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by drbluegrass View Post
And I have immense respect for Tim's considerable abilities on guitar. But I would still have to swallow pretty hard to pay the prices I've seen for an "outdoor"/"throw around guitar". But this may come as a tremendous shock to everyone here...I've been wrong before.

Tom
Hi Tom,

As I mentioned in another post, I had one of the new CA Tim Stafford Signature Model Acoustic-Electric Guitars with Onboard Fishman Aura Pickup/Preamp system. The Tim Stafford Signature is CA's top-of-the-line dreadnought. You can purchase this for about the same cost as an acoustic Martin HD-28 and have as much bang as the HD-28 but with more acoustic clarity of tone (I've had seven Martin HD-28 dreads). The tonal palettes of both guitars are noticeably different but I can't say I'd prefer the Martin HD-28 tone over the CA Tim's tone.

Please don't think of carbon guitars as "outdoor/throw around guitars" as they deserve as much respect from anyone as do fine wooden guitars. Although they are more durable and need less care than a wooden guitar, they can be damaged. I don't think you'll be under-gunned if you brought a CA Tim to a bluegrass jam and while everyone else is tuning between songs, as things get hotter and moister in the jam area, you can relax as your carbon axe will still be in tune!

Regards,

SpruceTop
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Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2
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  #79  
Old 01-09-2010, 08:20 PM
Matt Mustapick Matt Mustapick is offline
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Maybe, but it won't be necessitated by any lack of really great wood. To my knowledge there's plenty of Sitka and walnut to go around for a long time to come.
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  #80  
Old 01-09-2010, 08:55 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Originally Posted by Matt Mustapick View Post
Maybe, but it won't be necessitated by any lack of really great wood. To my knowledge there's plenty of Sitka and walnut to go around for a long time to come.
Hi Matt,

Thanks for your feedback and it's good to know there's still plenty of tonewoods out there!

I'm an enthusiast of both wood and carbon guitars. My reasoning behind proposing the question:

Will Major Wooden Guitar Makers Embrace Carbon As A Construction Alternative?

is because carbon guitars are rapidly becoming more and more popular and there may be decent money to be made in these guitars for builders. I feel Martin, Taylor, Gibson and Larrivee just might jump onboard. Already, some independent luthiers are embracing some carbon fiber in their designs. There are players who've gone over completely to carbon for their stable because the worries and necessary care are much less than for wooden guitars and the tone of carbon guitars has arrived for many players.

Bob Taylor and Chris Martin seem to me to be pretty savvy guys who are out to do what's best to keep their companies viable. They've both tried and developed new construction methods for building guitars and I feel they may consider adding carbon to their product lines. They may do this by trying to develop the necessary carbon-guitar-making processes themselves or acquire the expertise by buying an existing carbon guitar company. I don't know what the profit margin is on a carbon guitar compared to a wooden guitar, but if done right, a line of carbon guitars, along with their wooden guitar lines, just may add significantly to the bottomline revenues of established wooden guitar companies.

Regards,

SpruceTop
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2
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  #81  
Old 01-09-2010, 09:13 PM
drbluegrass drbluegrass is offline
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Pete,

I think your comment..."Well then you are not qualified to comment are you?"...is a fair one. I've based all my info on website sound clips only. Perhaps I need to learn more factual information and open my mind up, especially after reading Spruce Top's posts. And, perhaps CAs (and Rainsongs) are far more than "throw around" guitars? I will certainly look into these instruments a little further. I'll have to admit I was surprised to see Tim Stafford endorsing the CA guitars. And if they're good enough for a player of Tim's level... I'll stay tuned.


Tom
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  #82  
Old 01-09-2010, 09:26 PM
Matt Mustapick Matt Mustapick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Hi Matt,

Thanks for your feedback and it's good to know there's still plenty of tonewoods out there!

I'm an enthusiast of both wood and carbon guitars. My reasoning behind proposing the question:

Will Major Wooden Guitar Makers Embrace Carbon As A Construction Alternative?

is because carbon guitars are rapidly becoming more and more popular and there may be decent money to be made in these guitars for builders. I feel Martin, Taylor, Gibson and Larrivee just might jump onboard. Already, some independent luthiers are embracing some carbon fiber in their designs. There are players who've gone over completely to carbon for their stable because the worries and necessary care are much less than for wooden guitars and the tone of carbon guitars has arrived for many players.

Bob Taylor and Chris Martin seem to me to be pretty savvy guys who are out to do what's best to keep their companies viable. They've both tried and developed new construction methods for building guitars and I feel they may consider adding carbon to their product lines. They may do this by trying to develop the necessary carbon-guitar-making processes themselves or acquire the expertise by buying an existing carbon guitar company. I don't know what the profit margin is on a carbon guitar compared to a wooden guitar, but if done right, a line of carbon guitars, along with their wooden guitar lines, just may add significantly to the bottomline revenues of established wooden guitar companies.

Regards,

SpruceTop
Hey SpruceTop,

I've played only a few CF guitars and I thought a couple of them sounded pretty good. I'm not the least bit prejudiced against the idea...in fact I'm sure that nothing stands in the way of very excellent CF guitars. Anything that vibrates can be made to vibrate well.

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  #83  
Old 01-09-2010, 10:01 PM
handers handers is offline
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Nah, I'm guessing CA and Rainsong will bring out new models using wood!! radical concept? ; )

hans
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1987 Lowden L32p (sitka/ind RW)
1992 Froggy Bottom F (19th cent. german spruce/koa)
2000 Froggy Bottom H12c (adir/ind RW)
2016 Froggy Bottom K mod (adir/madrose; my son's)
2010 Voyage-Air VAOM-2C

http://www.soundclick.com/hanstunes (recorded on Froggy H12c)
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  #84  
Old 01-09-2010, 10:29 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handers View Post
Nah, I'm guessing CA and Rainsong will bring out new models using wood!! radical concept? ; )

hans
Hi Hans,

That's an interesting thought and thanks for thinking outside the box! What if companies in each mode of guitar-making, carbon and wood, are thinking the opposite of each other--and why not? You never know!

Regards,

SpruceTop
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2
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  #85  
Old 01-10-2010, 08:52 AM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Hi Folks,

There is only 1 day remaining before the poll closes!

If you haven't yet voted for your answer choice to the poll question:

Will Major Wooden Guitar Makers Embrace Carbon As A Construction Alternative?

please do so by going to the top of the page to enter your choice. Thanks!

Regards,

SpruceTop
__________________
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2
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