Will Major Wooden Guitar Makers Embrace Carbon As A Construction Alternative?

[Bugeyed]

I think that we will see more hybrids. Some luthiers incorporate cf in their design now, such as strengthening braces & such. The tooling/equipment for constructing a total composite guitar are a big change & a major expense to change over to. Personally, I would like to see some experimenting with composite designs with wood tops. I know Ovation has been doing this for years, but I am talking about a "lightly" built guitar. One that may not work as well as a stage instrument, but be responsive & lively, while retaining the character of a wood guitar. I think that "responsiveness" is what is lacking on many Ovations, since they are designed to be good performers on stage, the tops are not as lively as I would like. When I say "lively/responsive" I am talking from my experience with my Lowden S10. I love the way it reacts to even a light touch. Especially since I have tuned it a half step down.
Cheers,
kev

[beach bob]

Bogus poll. No pizza option.

Is it lunchtime yet??

[Kurt]

Who, in the 1960s, would've thought that luxury-car company Cadillac would eventually build a hybrid truck?

Who, in the 1970s, would've imagined that country and folk star Johnny Cash would cover a song by an industrial rock band such as Nine Inch Nails?

Who, in the 1980s, would've envisioned that anti-Orwellian Apple would join forces with Intel and Microsoft?

I'm not saying any of these people sold out in any way. I'm just saying that one should never-say-never to the realm of the imagination and the variances of the marketplace.

[SpruceTop]

As far as failing to be proactive in product development to meet, or indeed create, a demand in potential customers, one need only look at Eastman Kodak Company, headquartered here in my hometown of Rochester, New York. Until approximately 1980, Kodak was the undisputed leader in consumer photography with its cameras and film products (it also was and is still at the forefront of products and applications for industry, science and the military). During the late 1980s, Kodak's employment reached about 60,000 right here in Rochester. Currently, Kodak employs about 15,000 locally with many of its buildings having been torn down in Kodak Park which was once the world's third largest industrial complex.

Even though Kodak's research labs were involved in the nascent development of digital photography, the sad thing is that Kodak's management didn't act early toward the groundswell that became the digital photographic age feeling that it was a fad and hoping because of Kodak's massive commitment to photographic film and cameras, that the fad would pass or not rise the way it did. As a result Kodak was delayed in developing consumer- and professional-grade digital products to meet the fad that rapidly became the large and rising demand for digital photographic products it is today. All or most Kodak consumer- and professional-grade film and digital cameras are now made abroad which also greatly contributed to reduced Kodak employment here in Rochester.

I feel any major company, whether a guitar maker, a car company, or other, with so much capital based in its being, and who isn't engaged in product development and exploring new venues in which to expand its expertise, is destined to become diminished and perhaps obsolete in this fast-moving age of science and technology. I extend my thinking also to the current carbon guitar makers, who just may be or should be looking for a possible next material to use in building their guitars while still pursuing their current mode of craftsmanship. A company that's always looking to the future, and for alternative or better ways of doing or making things, is a company that stands a better chance of remaining relevant and viable. This, I truly believe, goes for Martin, Taylor, et al, too. There's no reason they can't continue to make all-wood guitars for current and future players while pursuing other build materials and technology to expand their potential market either through their own research and development or by acquiring the alternative expertise by other means.

Regards,

SpruceTop

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Even though Kodak's research labs were involved in the nascent development of digital photography, the sad thing is that Kodak's management didn't act early toward the groundswell that became the digital photographic age....

I wonder if digital guitars are the future rather than soundboard and air-chamber based guitars. Smaller. Larger tonal palette. And potentially much easier to play. I want one.

[ironman187]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

As far as failing to be proactive in product development to meet, or indeed create, a demand in potential customers, one need only look at Eastman Kodak Company, headquartered here in my hometown of Rochester, New York. Until approximately 1980, Kodak was the undisputed leader in consumer photography with its cameras and film products (it also was and is still at the forefront of products and applications for industry, science and the military). During the late 1980s, Kodak's employment reached about 60,000 right here in Rochester. Currently, Kodak employs about 15,000 locally with many of its buildings having been torn down in Kodak Park which was once the world's third largest industrial complex.

Even though Kodak's research labs were involved in the nascent development of digital photography, the sad thing is that Kodak's management didn't act early toward the groundswell that became the digital photographic age feeling that it was a fad and hoping because of Kodak's massive commitment to photographic film and cameras, that the fad would pass or not rise the way it did. As a result Kodak was delayed in developing consumer- and professional-grade digital products to meet the fad that rapidly became the large and rising demand for digital photographic products it is today. All or most Kodak consumer- and professional-grade film and digital cameras are now made abroad which also greatly contributed to reduced Kodak employment here in Rochester.

I feel any major company, whether a guitar maker, a car company, or other, with so much capital based in its being, and who isn't engaged in product development and exploring new venues in which to expand its expertise, is destined to become diminished and perhaps obsolete in this fast-moving age of science and technology. I extend my thinking also to the current carbon guitar makers, who just may be or should be looking for a possible next material to use in building their guitars while still pursuing their current mode of craftsmanship. A company that's always looking to the future, and for alternative or better ways of doing or making things, is a company that stands a better chance of remaining relevant and viable. This, I truly believe, goes for Martin, Taylor, et al, too. There's no reason they can't continue to make all-wood guitars for current and future players while pursuing other build materials and technology to expand their potential market either through their own research and development or by acquiring the alternative expertise by other means.

Regards,

SpruceTop

No no no no! Guitars have something cameras never will, tone. So far, nobody has produced a higher end carbon fiber, composite, or even laminate (which I believe falls loosely within the confines of composite.) That sounds as nice as a higher end solid wood guitar. The ONLY things these guitars have going for them is uniqueness, and how rugged they are. Carbon fiber is actually MORE expensive than wood at this point in time and will continue down that path for the unforeseeable future. I guarantee you that CA guitars will NEVER replace solid wood. I can definitely see CA being used in some parts of solid wood guitars, but as a whole, wood will continue to be the standard.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by ironman187

No no no no! Guitars have something cameras never will, tone. So far, nobody has produced a higher end carbon fiber, composite, or even laminate (which I believe falls loosely within the confines of composite.) That sounds as nice as a higher end solid wood guitar. The ONLY things these guitars have going for them is uniqueness, and how rugged they are. Carbon fiber is actually MORE expensive than wood at this point in time and will continue down that path for the unforeseeable future. I guarantee you that CA guitars will NEVER replace solid wood. I can definitely see CA being used in some parts of solid wood guitars, but as a whole, wood will continue to be the standard.

Hi Ironman,

Please reread what I wrote. I didn't say carbon guitars will replace wooden guitars. The gist of what I'm saying in my post is it may be of benefit for companies that are currently only wooden guitar makers to investigate and perhaps bring carbon guitars into their product line. Frankly, I don't care one way or the other what they do but they may end-up sometime in the future caring more than I or they do right now.

Looking at my signature guitars, I enjoy both wood and graphite guitars and, after playing graphite for several years, I can't knock their tone as there's a crystalline shimmer to the upper mid-range and trebles that I don't hear in wood. This is neither good nor bad--it just is. When all is said and done, right now, of all my guitars, I prefer the acoustic tone of my Martin D-18GE over all the others for general bluegrass-/country-style playing. I think my RainSong WS1000 is a decent all-around guitar and could possibly be an acoustic/acoustic-electric guitar of choice for many Pop Music/Singer-Songwriter/Jazz guitar players. Maybe? Maybe not?

Regards,

SpruceTop

[Aaron Smith]

More musings to support my speculation that the big guys will eventually acquire CA and Rainsong:
- As with any new technical innovation, it will require knowledge, manufacturing capital, and intellectual property to truly get in the game. Most of the big guys are currently zero for three, while the carbon-specific manufacturers are pretty far out ahead. It would be less expensive for the bigger players to buy the smaller companies than to invest in all the things necessary to enter the market with organic product development.
- CA and Rainsong's biggest obstacles today are distribution and first-hand customer product knowledge, or sampling. Most people would probably be pretty impressed with the carbon guitars if they had the opportunity to play them. This is exactly where Martin, Taylor, and Gibson excel- management of their dealer networks, and presence in the customer's buying environment.
- Guitar grade woods are becoming increasingly scarce, and costs are rising dramatically. Alternative tonewoods are available, but once you convince customers to stray from the "traditional" materials, it's an easier leap to convince them of the virtues of synthetics.
- Raw materials for carbon composite guitars are nearly limitless. Unlike woods, as demand rises the costs should actually go down because the manufacturers will buy in larger lots. This will create a distinct price advantage for composite manufacturers, which will be financially attractive to the traditional builders.

These things are pretty much traditional business wisdom; however, there's plenty of evidence to show that the big guitar manufacturers don't follow the traditional wisdom. Sometimes, they show little wisdom at all. So in my mind, the jury is still out.

[Matt Mustapick]

If it sounds good do it!

[Doubleneck]

If rainsong was the first guitar made, we would all have a different reference point and we would all be saying, there is a place for these new wood guitars but they don't approach the crystal clear sound of those old carbon guitars.
Steve

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

More musings to support my speculation that the big guys will eventually acquire CA and Rainsong:
- As with any new technical innovation, it will require knowledge, manufacturing capital, and intellectual property to truly get in the game. Most of the big guys are currently zero for three, while the carbon-specific manufacturers are pretty far out ahead. It would be less expensive for the bigger players to buy the smaller companies than to invest in all the things necessary to enter the market with organic product development.
- CA and Rainsong's biggest obstacles today are distribution and first-hand customer product knowledge, or sampling. Most people would probably be pretty impressed with the carbon guitars if they had the opportunity to play them. This is exactly where Martin, Taylor, and Gibson excel- management of their dealer networks, and presence in the customer's buying environment.
- Guitar grade woods are becoming increasingly scarce, and costs are rising dramatically. Alternative tonewoods are available, but once you convince customers to stray from the "traditional" materials, it's an easier leap to convince them of the virtues of synthetics.
- Raw materials for carbon composite guitars are nearly limitless. Unlike woods, as demand rises the costs should actually go down because the manufacturers will buy in larger lots. This will create a distinct price advantage for composite manufacturers, which will be financially attractive to the traditional builders.

These things are pretty much traditional business wisdom; however, there's plenty of evidence to show that the big guitar manufacturers don't follow the traditional wisdom. Sometimes, they show little wisdom at all. So in my mind, the jury is still out.

Well Put!

SpruceTop

[1cubilindo]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Well Put!

SpruceTop

Perhaps one of your offspring will one day join this forum as "Carbon Top"

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by ironman187

No no no no! Guitars have something cameras never will, tone. So far, nobody has produced a higher end carbon fiber, composite, or even laminate (which I believe falls loosely within the confines of composite.) That sounds as nice as a higher end solid wood guitar. The ONLY things these guitars have going for them is uniqueness, and how rugged they are. Carbon fiber is actually MORE expensive than wood at this point in time and will continue down that path for the unforeseeable future. I guarantee you that CA guitars will NEVER replace solid wood. I can definitely see CA being used in some parts of solid wood guitars, but as a whole, wood will continue to be the standard.

Sounds nice is subjective. Who knows what will be the tastes or requirements of future generations. The sound of wood may not be what they want.

Methinks your woes about carbon fibre are the protests of a Luddite who has seen the future and doesn't like it..

Let us enjoy our wooden guitars while we've got them....carbon fibre is not ready for the big time....yet.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Doubleneck

If rainsong was the first guitar made, we would all have a different reference point and we would all be saying, there is a place for these new wood guitars but they don't approach the crystal clear sound of those old carbon guitars.
Steve

Another outlook and probably a valid supposition!

SpruceTop

[ironman187]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

Hi Ironman,

Please reread what I wrote. I didn't say carbon guitars will replace wooden guitars. The gist of what I'm saying in my post is it may be of benefit for companies that are currently only wooden guitar makers to investigate and perhaps bring carbon guitars into their product line. Frankly, I don't care one way or the other what they do but they may end-up sometime in the future caring more than I or they do right now.

Looking at my signature guitars, I enjoy both wood and graphite guitars and, after playing graphite for several years, I can't knock their tone as there's a crystalline shimmer to the upper mid-range and trebles that I don't hear in wood. This is neither good nor bad--it just is. When all is said and done, right now, of all my guitars, I prefer the acoustic tone of my Martin D-18GE over all the others for general bluegrass-/country-style playing. I think my RainSong WS1000 is a decent all-around guitar and could possibly be an acoustic/acoustic-electric guitar of choice for many Pop Music/Singer-Songwriter/Jazz guitar players. Maybe? Maybe not?

Regards,

SpruceTop

Then I refer to my first post. They will not sell, not in numbers great enough to make it worth the time effort retooling, and retraining.