How much is inherent ability?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by jrporter;2033023[B

Gladwell repeatedly mentions the "10,000-Hour Rule", claiming that the key to success in any field is, to a large extent, a matter of practising a specific task for a total of around 10,000 hours[/B]."

Of course take that very "sound bite" like number with a grain of salt. Also those putting that much time into something creates a self-limiting group of people as in regards to how much natural apptitude they have. For example it is unlikely someone would practice guitar 6 or 7 hours a day seven days a week for fours years unless they were make suitable progress to reap the dividends. And again it is not just the total of hours played to have some level of proficiency but continued daily practice to to get there and stay there.

[Jack Orion]

I think you have to have a certain 'something'...

whether that's a natural 'talent' or an ability to see beyond the initial difficulties and put up with the clangers and bum notes until you get better I don't know.

I think a lot depends on what you wish to achieve.

My cousin is a professional musician - he plays double bass for a lot of west end productions and teaches guitar at one of the top schools for music in London - you put any piece of music in front of him and he'll play it, note perfect and probably from memory the next time round. He had classical guitar lessons from about ten years old, then studied jazz bass at university - he's put his 10'000 hours in, and a bit more.

Truth be told he was the reason I withheld from playing an instrument for many years - I would never be able to compete with his talent. But, for some reason, I just decided at sixteen I was going to learn the guitar. I had one or two lessons, and then just started playing - all the time!

Sometimes I practise really hard on something - fingerpicking last summer - but, when I get it, I tend just to play lots and lots. I write songs and I record them, I play with my friends and at open mic nights, sometimes I'll busk. I can pretty much 'fake' most styles and have started playing the mandolin and also moved onto bass more recently. Everything has been done by ear, a couple of lessons here and there that never really worked out, and by chord books and tab.

My cousin's been playing nearly twenty years and me nearly ten.

My cousin has achieved a much higher standard than me, but through sheer hard, goal-orientated, work. When he talks about music, sometimes I get the feeling it's as if he HAD to do it, but against his will. Apparently he was unsure whether to pursue music or computers at one point...

I, on the other hand, didn't have to do anything - I just wanted to and I've learnt to play to a pretty good level just by myself.

Sometimes I wonder what might have happened if we'd been an experiment, and both sent to lessons at the same time and learning the same things. A bit of me thinks I'd have done better, as I think I love the guitar and music a little more than him. But, the truth is, I wouldn't of, because I don't have the personality that would focus in on what was needed to progress like he does - I spend most of my time on the guitar dreamily playing until an idea for a song comes.

Music found me at a time in my life when I was sad and didn't connect with any of my peers, and it gave me lifeline and a reason to do something other than drink on the streets and get into fights. I enjoy it too much and gain too much from it to ever want to feel as if it was a chore and I must fit another fifteen minutes in.

I think the difference between my cousin and I is that music is in his head, but it's in my heart.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Of course take that very "sound bite" like number with a grain of salt. Also those putting that much time into something creates a self-limiting group of people as in regards to how much natural apptitude they have. For example it is unlikely someone would practice guitar 6 or 7 hours a day seven days a week for fours years unless they were make suitable progress to reap the dividends. And again it is not just the total of hours played to have some level of proficiency but continued daily practice to to get there and stay there.

Rick,
Good point, well made..........

Now......if you'll just post once more, you'll be at an even 2000 according to the post counter.

Have a very Happy Thanksgiving!

HE

[raulb]

There definitely is such a thing as innate ability. I am just not sure we have a choice in what that ability is.

How else do you explain the idiot savant who walks up to a piano and plays it almost flawlessly without having taken lessons?

How else do you explain someone who can play by ear? People with extraordinary talent are often unable to play anything unless it is written down for them. Then they are masterful, but not if they have to play by ear. I have known classically trained musicians who cannot play one note unless it is on paper in front of them, and their ability to sight read amazes me. There are others who can't read a note of music yet they can play like a master.

Let's look at two people who have played together. Chet Atkins is considered to be one of the best guitar players the world has ever seen. Yet to me, he sounds mechanical. Technically he is perfection, but there is no soul to his music, and I think he is one of those who worked very hard to achieve his ability. Doc Watson, on the other hand . . . .

This is true of all of the arts. Some people work hard to achieve greatness and others seem to fall into it seemingly effortlessly. How do you explain it unless the latter had an innate ability?

Me? I'm a hack. Although I have been playing something for 50 years, I can't put two correct notes together whether they are on paper or by ear, and I can't sight read to save my life.

[Kevin Gallagher]

Howard Emerson,

Your first post which was the first reply to the original post was one of the most considerate and thoughtful things I've ever seen offered in any thread, on any subject, anywhere.....and i've read and posted my share of posts and thread at a lot of great forums being contributed to by players and builders from all over the world.

You've been a real inspiration to many of us, myself included, as a player who is able to truly express himself and communicate deep emotion through the music
that you write and play. Instead of making progress as a player in the past two decades, I've actually regressed in a lot of ways as my schedule and focus for my
time and energy has been forced to change. I used to play, teach and record full time with me having a guitar in my hands for as many as 16 hours a day most days. I always pushed myself to learn and to try new things, but never reached the abilities of a world class player. With my work focus changing from being a player to being a builder of guitars and having a growing family to consume more and more of time and energy and attention, i've gotten to a place where, in the past ten years or so, I'm happy if I get to actually sit and play guitar for a half hour a few days a week. I miss the time that i used to be able to put in, especially when I listen to myself and remember way back when it sounded better.

Thanks for your time and thought,
Kevin Gallagher

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Rick,
Good point, well made..........

Now......if you'll just post once more, you'll be at an even 2000 according to the post counter.

Have a very Happy Thanksgiving!

HE

Thanks Howard and happy holidays to you and all the forumites also.
#2000, whoopie

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by Kevin Gallagher

Howard Emerson,

Your first post which was the first reply to the original post was one of the most considerate and thoughtful things I've ever seen offered in any thread, on any subject, anywhere.....and i've read and posted my share of posts and thread at a lot of great forums being contributed to by players and builders from all over the world.

You've been a real inspiration to many of us, myself included, as a player who is able to truly express himself and communicate deep emotion through the music
that you write and play. Instead of making progress as a player in the past two decades, I've actually regressed in a lot of ways as my schedule and focus for my
time and energy has been forced to change. I used to play, teach and record full time with me having a guitar in my hands for as many as 16 hours a day most days. I always pushed myself to learn and to try new things, but never reached the abilities of a world class player. With my work focus changing from being a player to being a builder of guitars and having a growing family to consume more and more of time and energy and attention, i've gotten to a place where, in the past ten years or so, I'm happy if I get to actually sit and play guitar for a half hour a few days a week. I miss the time that i used to be able to put in, especially when I listen to myself and remember way back when it sounded better.

Thanks for your time and thought,
Kevin Gallagher

Hello Kevin,
Thank you so much for the kind words.

I do understand, clearly, why you can relate to my experience, which I'm sure is not unique, and is dealt with by many others all the time.

It's all about priorities and balance.

The best to you and the family, Kevin!

HE

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Christian Reno

How much of your guitar playing expertise, ability, acumen, etc. do you attribute to practice and experience vs. inherent talent?

Hi C…
On a personal level - a lot. I'm not an intuitive player and rely heavily on what I've systematically absorbed over the years.

It takes me a while to learn new technique and work it into the fingers --- to get-it --- but then I seem to have it for life (well up to 61 years old anyway). I can dig up tunes we have not played in 25 years and they are 'fresh' in my head/hands.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

... I can dig up tunes we have not played in 25 years and they are 'fresh' in my head/hands...

Larry,

That's an interesting comment. I find, too, that once I learn a song, I pretty much have it down on the guitar, but for some reason I have a terrible time remembering song lyrics. I can only conclude that a different part of the brain is involved in remembering words to songs.

Regards, Glenn

[Neal]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Dear Neal,
What do you even know about natural talent?? You play Ukulele...........not even a real instrument.......

Really now.............:-)

Hope all is well over your way.

Be well,
Howard

Ahh, but Howard, I've come to the dark side now, I even have a guitar piece on my Youtube. Check it out and give me both guns!

But, you are correct, I do not have a concept of this thing folks talk about as natural talent. I always thought it was sort of a dismissal of someone's hard work for someone to say it was a gift, when in actuality that person worked their butt off, alienated people, missed out on things, all for the love and devotion given to their chosen instrument. It does work out for some in the end, with fans and adoration and loads of cash, but for a lot..... well, pay for the pizza and they'll get off your porch.

But hey, maybe. It could happen.

Originally Posted by Christian Reno

How much of your guitar playing expertise, ability, acumen, etc. do you attribute to practice and experience vs. inherent talent? I know many players who start and give up because they are convinced that if they don’t excel in the first few months, they must not have the “natural ability” to play.

I think "expertise, ability, acumen, etc." is 75% due to practice and experience and 25% due to talent, because talent has to do with music itself and practice has to do with the specific instrument you choose to allow your talent to use. Think of it this way: If you are extremely musically talented, you just can't pick up a guitar and play without practicing and learning it over a period of time; but you can completely ignore guitar and still be musically talented.

[BaylinerCapri]

I think just like sports, some people are natural athletes. Sure we call can learn to play the guitar with practice and patience, but I do think some people are just gifted. Ive seen kids that can play guitar better then guys that have been playing for years. Musical ear is huge. If you can listen to it and then play it thats a talent. Not all of us can do that. Some need the music on a sheet in front of them to play it. I mean i can practice all i want but chances are im never gonna be a Professional golfer. Tiger Woods did work his butt off but he certainly had some genetics going for him. I mean I had a buddy in highschool that was good at whatever he did, things just came to him easily, while others had to work really hard at it. For the general person that plays for a hobbie then patience and practice is the key. Those that excell beyond that didnt just practice more, they had something different inside them that propelled them higher. My two cents.

[220volt]

I think as long as you stay away from Guitar Hero you'll be ok.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by Neal

Ahh, but Howard, I've come to the dark side now, I even have a guitar piece on my Youtube. Check it out and give me both guns!

But, you are correct, I do not have a concept of this thing folks talk about as natural talent. I always thought it was sort of a dismissal of someone's hard work for someone to say it was a gift, when in actuality that person worked their butt off, alienated people, missed out on things, all for the love and devotion given to their chosen instrument. It does work out for some in the end, with fans and adoration and loads of cash, but for a lot..... well, pay for the pizza and they'll get off your porch.

But hey, maybe. It could happen.

Hey Neal,
I'm sure your guitar playing is every bit as good with the extra 2 strings! I'll buy some bullets and check out the clip.............;-)

HE

[surfoxy]

Originally Posted by min7b5

I got up at 5 am this morning to get my three hours in. Any less than three hours and I start going backwards, so I know for sure I wasn’t given any gifts

Wow. That's what it takes.

Very inspirational.