Scales, Who needs them?

[webby]

Thank you for your post. I have printed it off and read it again and again, and I have decided that (and im going to get flamed for this possibly) that you Sir (or madam) are a git .... in the nicest way....

I will now go back and start at the beginning as much as i can because you have made me aware that i know no scales.... oh the shame !...

and i have been doing on average of 40 minutes guitar practice/attempted playing a day since July 18th this year.

So in advance i thank you and wave my fist at you as I shall now set myself the task of being able to play - forwards and backwards - one scale a week.

I start with C, D, E, G & A major scales. As noted in the preview pages of 815c's book. (Which i have highlighted to my missus on my xmas wish list).

Webby out ! (for now)...

ps. have a great weekend guys n girls.

[BoB/335]

Originally Posted by raptordigits

I play guitar for the enjoyment. It's not a mountaiin that has to be conquered.

Someone recently pointed out that the guitar is one of the only instruments looked at in that way. Take a violinist for example. A violinist WILL be looking at their instrument as a mountain to be conquered. They will study will an educated teacher and move on to someone better when they outgrow that one. I know a flutist who does the same thing.

Guitarist on the other hand look for the least they can get away with and still have fun. The person who pointed this out to me also pointed also noted that they believe this is since the introduction of rock n roll. Before that guitarist studied like any other performer to get the most they can and to be the best they could be. Mix that in with the lazy Western mentality and what do you have? Someone like me!

[Bern]

Originally Posted by BoB/335

Someone recently pointed out that the guitar is one of the only instruments looked at in that way.

CFS...camp fire syndrome...
Don't see too many people bringing their tuba to the beach.
Seriously, though, I think, the guitar struggles always to be an excepted orchestral string instrument, one which needs to be studied as much as violins, cello, etc.

[raptordigits]

Originally Posted by BoB/335

Someone recently pointed out that the guitar is one of the only instruments looked at in that way. Take a violinist for example. A violinist WILL be looking at their instrument as a mountain to be conquered. They will study will an educated teacher and move on to someone better when they outgrow that one. I know a flutist who does the same thing.

Guitarist on the other hand look for the least they can get away with and still have fun. The person who pointed this out to me also pointed also noted that they believe this is since the introduction of rock n roll. Before that guitarist studied like any other performer to get the most they can and to be the best they could be. Mix that in with the lazy Western mentality and what do you have? Someone like me!

A few years ago the conductor of our city's philharmonic orchestra was retiring. In the course of the interview he stated that the worse development that had happened to musical creativity in the last couple hundred years was the combination of the music teacher, the instrument and the student. He stated, in contrast, the best development of music was the 15 year old boy sitting on the edge of his bed trying to squeeze out sounds from his electric guitar with nobody stiflling his creativity.

Each to their own. It's music...art.

[ELK]

Jeremy - I felt bad after reading your post. You reminded us that while it's interesting to talk about the more complicated aspects of music, it can sound intimidating to others who aren't as familiar with these concepts. Let me assure you, as others have, that you do NOT need to know all that stuff to be a good guitar player and entertain both yourself and your audience. In fact, even though I have learned various scales and extended chords, and have studied some jazz, when I play a gig at a bar or a party, almost NONE of that stuff is involved. I end up playing rock, pop, country and folk songs with basic chords, a few melodic licks that I figured out by ear, and a few solos based on the major and pentatonic minor scales (which are the simplest ones to learn). You can play the VAST MAJORITY of popular music without knowing much about music theory. Enjoy!

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by JeremyG

These posts have me, the beginner, worried
I need to keep it fun. I will too. I'll just need some help in deciphering it all as to the importance to what I'm trying to do with the music I love.

It frightens me to no end. Still I doodle around...

Jeremy.....keeping it fun!

Well Just keep doodling , or as I call it noodling. I have just in last few years ( after some 40 yrs. of noodling and knowing nothing except a few first position cord names ) attempted to learn some scale patterns and theory (and BTW still have a difficult time, remedial I guess) A person can still derive the significant enjoyment of just playing, without any formal knowledge . I think the one aspect where have a working knowledge of theory can be really be helpful and expedite, is when playing with other people.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by ELK

Jeremy - I felt bad after reading your post. You reminded us that while it's interesting to talk about the more complicated aspects of music, it can sound intimidating to others who aren't as familiar with these concepts. Let me assure you, as others have, that you do NOT need to know all that stuff to be a good guitar player and entertain both yourself and your audience. In fact, even though I have learned various scales and extended chords, and have studied some jazz, when I play a gig at a bar or a party, almost NONE of that stuff is involved. I end up playing rock, pop, country and folk songs with basic chords, a few melodic licks that I figured out by ear, and a few solos based on the major and pentatonic minor scales (which are the simplest ones to learn). You can play the VAST MAJORITY of popular music without knowing much about music theory. Enjoy!

Like the Duke said "If it sounds good it is good". I would not worry about getting over loaded on theory or trying to know every scale possible. You can know a lot of this stuff and still play and compose badly. On the other hand train your ears and good things will invariably come from it.

[markIvan]

I'm gonna have to read this thread later but in line with the post heading i have been thinking for a long time .....HOW MUCH DO I "NEED " TO KNOW .

I know chord ,families ,keys and all concerned nearly with the circle of fifths .My preferred style is finger picking and i see this much more an art of patterns rather than scales which i see as a kind of cross over to finger style which is leading to classical .
Love classical but story telling to picking patterns is what i envisage playing the most ....................

the trouble is that knowing scales give much more scope for leading into each picking pattern with base runs and such ..................so i think my answer would be YES learn them ,it will assist your aims if they are similar to mine .

[Allman_Fan]

There are two related, yet distinct concepts.
1. The scales themselves.
2. Playing in the scales.

1. Scales give you a framework for viewing all of the notes. Scales are used when describing music without playing it. (Like on this forum.) I suppose some folks try to impress others with fancy terminology, but those folks should realize they probably get a lot more rolled eyes than they know.

2. Playing scales can provide a dextrous workout for the hands. However, some players do the same scales, the same way, over and over. The same order, same turn around point, same time value for each note . . . and then when time comes to improvise, guess what always comes out? Some very similar variant to the ascending pentatonic scale (for example). I think playing the same scales too often with no variety can have detrimental results.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think scales have their purpose; however, I think there are other, more important relationships.

Consider the major scale as numbered notes: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

Now, consider this pattern:
1, 3, 5, 1, 4, 6, 2, 5, 7.

What does this mean?

[Christian Reno]

Originally Posted by JeremyG

These posts have me, the beginner, worried (about all the complexity), anxious (about worrying if it's all needed to play and have fun) and fascinated with wondering just how much I'm going to need to play recreationally, mostly for myself but...maybe not only solo either.

Jeremy,

There are a couple of things I have noticed over the years that may make you feel better about all this.

1. Many guitarists who talk a good game (especially theory) can't always back it up with actual playing. They can go on and on about scales, intervals, composition, etc., but when you hand them a guitar, their toy poodle rear-end can't keep up with their doberman mouth.
I don't mean this in a mean way at all. I have just noticed it too many times. Watch out for the guys who DON'T brag and DON'T try to convince you of how much they know and understand about the technical side of music. These are the guys who will probably blow your socks when you hear them.

2. I think many guitarists who are conversant in theory didn't start out that way. They started like you and most of us - playing to enjoy. Once ability increases, we all get a little curious about the technical side and jump into it.
There is always time to do the serious studying later. Unless you plan on going to a conservatory, or playing as a concert classical musician, you have the liberty to explore and enjoy at your own pace. Enjoy yourself as you explore this great instrument.

Regards,
Christian

[markIvan]

Originally Posted by Christian Reno

Jeremy,

There are a couple of things I have noticed over the years that may make you feel better about all this.

1. Many guitarists who talk a good game (especially theory) can't always back it up with actual playing. They can go on and on about scales, intervals, composition, etc., but when you hand them a guitar, their toy poodle rear-end can't keep up with their doberman mouth.
I don't mean this in a mean way at all. I have just noticed it too many times. Watch out for the guys who DON'T brag and DON'T try to convince you of how much they know and understand about the technical side of music. These are the guys who will probably blow your socks when you hear them.

2. I think many guitarists who are conversant in theory didn't start out that way. They started like you and most of us - playing to enjoy. Once ability increases, we all get a little curious about the technical side and jump into it.
There is always time to do the serious studying later. Unless you plan on going to a conservatory, or playing as a concert classical musician, you have the liberty to explore and enjoy at your own pace. Enjoy yourself as you explore this great instrument.

Regards,
Christian

I agree with all the above but i wouldn't be too hard on us that talk out loud to much because it is for the reason that we are unsure that we speak out some times ........we want to be corrected or agreed with in what we say .It makes us more sure about where to head in music and also where we are going wrong .It wouldnt do to keep asking and asking the same questions ..........people would get sick and tired .So we join in where we can and put our reasoning on the line for scrutiny .Occasionally you get some one with an exploded ego ,but mostly i think people are just trying to reinforce what they think they know .
I have to say the draw that gets to you in the theory has often hooked me away from playing hands on but mostly it is something to pull me off playing .When you return from some text book stuff you seem fresher and have lots to think of while taking care of some repetitious practice .
I'm just saying ( never meant to say all that at all )

[solidhadriel]

Zelator, out of curiousity why do you end your sentences with a space before the period? I read your post and all I got out of it was your weird (and wrong) grammar habit. Pardon me for interrupting the discussion, I just found that to be really quite peculiar and odd.

Continue...

[Christian Reno]

[QUOTE=Zelator;2038829]I agree with all the above but i wouldn't be too hard on us that talk out loud to much because it is for the reason that we are unsure that we speak out some times ........we want to be corrected or agreed with in what we say .It makes us more sure about where to head in music and also where we are going wrong .It wouldnt do to keep asking and asking the same questions ..........people would get sick and tired .So we [QUOTE]

Hi Zelator,

I didn't mean to be hard on anyone really. I love to get into theory and I believe it is an important part of everyones musical journey. I was just trying to tell Jeremy not to get caught up in all the complexities of music theory at the expense of enjoying and playing music.

There is a time and place for both. I just hate to see anyone intimidated by theory, and give up because they feel they will not grasp enough of it to be a decent player.

Have a great day!
CR

[markIvan]

[QUOTE=Christian Reno;2038891][QUOTE=Zelator;2038829]I agree with all the above but i wouldn't be too hard on us that talk out loud to much because it is for the reason that we are unsure that we speak out some times ........we want to be corrected or agreed with in what we say .It makes us more sure about where to head in music and also where we are going wrong .It wouldnt do to keep asking and asking the same questions ..........people would get sick and tired .So we

Hi Zelator,

I didn't mean to be hard on anyone really. I love to get into theory and I believe it is an important part of everyones musical journey. I was just trying to tell Jeremy not to get caught up in all the complexities of music theory at the expense of enjoying and playing music.

There is a time and place for both. I just hate to see anyone intimidated by theory, and give up because they feel they will not grasp enough of it to be a decent player.

Have a great day!
CR

No i hope you dont think i was being funny about your post ,i do agree that getting bogged down does spoil the fun of playing sometimes .What i didnt start to say but ended up saying is that i have always noticed sometimes that i do know much more than i am able to play .............it just happens that way i suppose because progress is slow in the hands on thing and much more available in the theory department .

no offense was meant as you were right in what you said .

[markIvan]

Originally Posted by solidhadriel

Zelator, out of curiousity why do you end your sentences with a space before the period? I read your post and all I got out of it was your weird (and wrong) grammar habit. Pardon me for interrupting the discussion, I just found that to be really quite peculiar and odd.

Continue...

ditto because i find someone who scrutinizes a persons grammar on a guitar site very quite odd also .............but hey we all got a right to be here eh