problems with a beginner guitar student - need some help

[Guitar_Addict]

Hi!
I have some problems with one of my guitar students and if anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it very much! I know the post is quite long, but I didn't know how else to write all that things in short. I'm really in need of some advice.

So here it goes... she is an adult beginner on acoustic guitar (around 30 years old). I never encountered someone like this before, and so didn't few other private guitar teachers, especially when an adult is in question.

She is very motivated to learn the guitar and wants to play well and understand it so badly, but often feels bad about herself because of her problems.

Otherwise she always had quite good grades in school and is quite intelligent in other things. She doesn't have any special needs as far as I know, she was never diagnosed with anything. She had 2 years of piano in her primary school years (it was a looong time ago, though, and she forgot most of the things by now) and her pitch recognition is quite good, rhythm sense too. She can copy me to the beat, but when she has to play it without hearing or watching me first, she is quite lost. Now she is learning acoustic guitar for about 9 months.

She understands rhythm, strumming patterns, and all the open chords very well, the trouble starts when we try to learn any form of musical notation (may it be tab or notes), anything about finding tones on the guitar, and she has lots of trouble with fingerstyle techniques because she can't read any notation, hence the trouble with remembering it. Sometimes it seems like she can't grasp a concept of tones and strings.

When I tried to teach her barre chords, she knows F and B chord, also F minor and B minor, but whenever I teach her other barre chords, she can never remember the right name of the chord. The problem is she can't remember tones on the strings. She says it looks all the same to her. We tried learning by repetition, tried games, I explained the chords and tones on few different ways, we tried playing songs with the new chord we learned, we worked on muscle memory, I also wrote all new chords down and she has a fingering chart in her theory notebook. As far as it goes, it took us nearly half a year to figure out barre chords for the first four frets (F, F#, G, G#, A#, B, C, C#). We could do it by me writing down on what dot is what tone, by fingering chart I made, and heavy repetition. And sometimes she still fails it without a fingering chart or seeing what tone is on what dot. I don't know what else to do. Otherwise she learnes open chords quickly, because she memorizes them by shape, not by tones.

Next problem are tones on the guitar. We did all those simple beginner exercises as 0,1,2, 0,1,2,3, or 0,1,2,3,4, etc. I tried to show her what the notes are first on low E string, later on A... she never made it past low E string. When she tries to find a tone by pitch, she doesn't take into account that the tones follow one another as semitones. So she finds wrong note more often than she finds the right one.

What would solve most of the problems listed here, would be if she knew how to read any form of musical notation for guitar.
I tried to teach her how to read the tablature which seemed like easier option because the finger placement is already shown there. She could not understand how to read it, I even asked some other guitar teachers how they would do it, and nobody could explain it to her so she could understand. Then I tried writing an inverted tablature and guess what, she could read it, almost sight-read! The problem is because it is an inverted, upside-down tablature where the lowest string (low E) is actually written on the line when you usually find a high E string tones. And you rarely find such tabs anywhere. So I have to manually convert everything she wants to play this way for her to be able to read it at all. I don't know how to teach her to read normally written tabs after so many attempts.

But there is the thing... when I asked her which string is the highest and which the lowest, she said that to her it would be logical if high E string would be in the place of low E string, actually if all strings would be placed in that order on the guitar. I asked her with which hand she writes and she said she was a lefty, but when in school she had to switch to right hand, because it was "not right to be lefty" and she is now like righty. I think there is a problem.
I adviced her to buy a left handed guitar and learn to read lefty tabs, or to replace the strings to different order, but she says she's used to strumming with the right hand and doesn't wanna change as she is very good with strumming chords now.

After a few failed attempts, I asked her how she best memorizes things, and she said in pictures. So actually I would have to write and color everything down for her to 'get it'. I don't really have many ideas on how to do it, as it seems she is a straight visual thinker and not so good auditory/practical learner. Does anybody have any experience with highly visual learners?
I know she does best when she copies everything I do and when I show her everything in front of her or draw a picture of the tones (we progressed pretty fast that way, but she often needs to look at pictures to remember things later, or has to see me play and copy it again and again), but I would want her to once be independent and not to need me for every single thing to show to her. I'm quite lost here.

I also asked her what her goals are and she said that she would want to be a country guitarist once or to be in a some kind of acoustic guitar band. This is a high goal, and we're stuck here with the thing called "musical theory and basic understanding of tones on strings".

I would really appreciate any help on this matter.

[donh]

She has to understand her own limitations and be willing to undertake the task of making her own translations/widgets. You cannot do this for her forever.

[Tuxcat]

There should be some kind of program that could invert TABs. If there isn't, someone should be able to write one up. Do you know if she is dyslexic?

It seems like the first thing to do is to figure out what makes different tones different to her. If she can't hear the difference, how does she perceive the difference? You might look into a set of conditions known as synesthesia to get a better idea of how it works.

Have you tried stringing her righty guitar upside-down to see what happens?

It definitely sounds like you and she are going to have to think outside the box to figure this out. I'd suggest finding a way for her to create a mental relationship to tones first, otherwise you may be spending time working on teaching her notation that she can't connect with.

Good luck!

[stanron]

Maybe I'm getting a bit pedantic here but what is all this stuff about finding tones on the guitar? They are not tones they're notes.

Apart from that if she wants to play country and can play open chords with a good sense of rhythm then get her playing songs she likes and forget about theory and reading. How do you feel about making her lessons more about getting the skills she'd need to be in a band? She gets to choose a song and you show her how to work it up as if you were a duo. Is that likely to be of any use?

[clintj]

I understand a little where she is coming from. I'm a little left of ambidextrous, and growing up settling into a certain hand for an activity at times made me feel a little uneasy and gave me a bit of trouble with handwriting and such. I chose righty for guitar, and it took me a long time to memorize the opens but once I memorized the look of them I took off. Barre chords came as needed, and I still struggle with scales and notes that aren't commonly used to anchor barre chords. IOW, I have the fifth and sixth strings memorized and not much else. I learned songs with strummed chords first, because that's what I wanted to play, and the rest is following along. If she is a very visual learner like me, a set of videos may help. YouTube was and is my best friend learning new material.

[Bern]

Start teaching her simple country songs. Before anything else she's got to get into memorization of chords and feel comfortable with the guitar. All the other stuff you mentioned seems too much for her right now and is heading into the 'totally frustrated' direction and eventual quitting.

[Roselynne]

Sounds like she's a visual learner, but spatial perception is not her strength. Honestly, I can identify with that a bit. Different issues, but I've had to take side roads to learn certain skills myself, at times. With guitar and theory, both, I've sometimes had to try multiple approaches to find one that sticks.

A deficit may be too slight to diagnose, but it can still be a royal pain.

Fortunately, it sounds as though she wants to play songs more than write or arrange them. She also sounds like a natural rhythm player. Is she really into learning lead? Or, would she be content to learn and play strummin' songs, for a time, anyway? Even if all she learns for now are open-chord songs, sheer exposure should help train ears and fingers, both.

Theory's wonderful. I enjoy it myself and find it essential, and I heartily recommend theory studies to anyone who has the slightest interest. But it may simply be too much of an obstacle to your student ... for now.

[MICHAEL MYERS]

Skip all the theory for the moment. There's no rush to play barre chords at this stage. What she needs to do is work through some easy songs with you leading the way. Teach her how to change chords economically. Teach her how to strum. Encourage her to watch youtube videos of the songs she's trying to learn as well as listening to the original.

[JanVigne]

"She understands rhythm, strumming patterns, and all the open chords very well, the trouble starts when we try to learn any form of musical notation (may it be tab or notes), anything about finding tones on the guitar, and she has lots of trouble with fingerstyle techniques because she can't read any notation, hence the trouble with remembering it. Sometimes it seems like she can't grasp a concept of tones and strings."




Have you ever dealt with anyone suffering from a disability? If not, I would first suggest you get in touch with someone skilled in learning disabilities. Over the last few decades significant progress has been made in understanding the workings of the disabled/diseased/injured brain and discoveries have followed which successfully push the right buttons, so to speak. Of course, patience and an understanding attitude concerning the student's difficulties are always important but the student must first have the desire to learn within the context of their own limitations. It appears as though your student has the desire to learn. Now the issue is what accommodations need to be made to allow that to happen. Here a special needs teacher should be of the greatest assistance. This is not an issue which is unheard of and, therefore, it should not be an issue without an answer. Your student needs to know that.

While I'm not a special needs teacher, I would say you should address the problem you relate above to an alternative method of learning notation. What have you tried so far? I assume you've come to us after search engines have failed. But, did you know there are alternatives to the traditional notation? http://www.openculture.com/2013/04/a...mmingbird.html

Other alternatives can be found on the web with a simple search. Unfortunately, what I see in your post is a desire to have this student become "normal". To state the obvious, you cannot take someone with two paralyzed legs to the mall and say, "Skate."

While not trying to sound cruel, disabilities are disabilities and trying to create a normal situation for a disabled person is as misguided as insisting the left side dominant child use their "normal" side for tasks. Good humor and an attitude that says the child is unique is, IMO, the best way to approach a disability. Living with a disabled partner over the last four decades has taught me it is at times very difficult to laugh when you want to scream but the partner in this arrangement has to have at last as much control as does the disabled person. In a situation such as you face, where learning musical notation is not a matter of life or death, taking a light hearted approach to mistakes and stumbles might be your best bet for both you and your student. Frustration over such events only serves to make the student even more aware of their disability when all they want is to have a life which is as normal as possible. I assume you already know this and I'm simply repeating what you've told yourself before you posted here. That you and your student want to find the answer here says a lot about both of you.

Ultimately, the student must accept their disability and realize that work arounds will be a part of their life. Rather than attempting numerous failed adjustments to "normal", if the student understands and accepts they must work within their disability, they can make greater progress. While I wouldn't make the suggestion anyone forced to use the opposite hand to their preference might have a tendency towards dyslexia, this is an area you might explore with the special needs teacher. It would seem that dyslexia has a similar effect on reading music notation; http://www.violinist.com/discussion/...se.cfm?id=9023

IMO it is first a matter of the student accepting the fact they have a disability which in no way makes them less of a human being and then seeking out the best way for them individually to deal with that fact in a world which demands normal only. http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=dif...-8&fr=veri-ie8

That your student has learned the sixth string is promising, not frustrating. Her progress is obviously going to be slower than other students and she may never reach a normal situation where she can sight read notation or tab. But progress is progress and the fact she has made that much progress should be a sign of a great future. Have you tried any of the fretboard learning tools available on the net? There are several to choose from, each depending on your needs and goals. A simple tool would locate a note on the fretboard and the student would have "X" amount of time to name that tone. By using the tool with a guitar in their hand a guitarist can associate the visual aspect of the fretboard in front of them with location and sound of the tone created. Once again there are numerous options your student could research. Here's another thread discussing what might be similar problems; http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=299419

And this from another forum which mentions a dyslexic player; http://www.acousticguitarcommunity.c...sales-approach

I think, if you discuss this with a special needs instructor, you'll find there are no cut and dry answers to your questions. Each student is an individual with specific needs and answers to their unique situations. However, if your student accepts this and is willing to pay you to work through her difficulties together, there is very likely an answer out there for her. She might need to take the time to transcribe each song into a language her brain comprehends. If this is what it takes for her to achieve her goals, then it is more a matter of her accepting the process rather than her trying to be "normal". The world is becoming more and more accepting of disabilities and she will have an easier time in the world if she addresses her needs face on.

The world is changing and individuals such as Temple Grandin have refused to make their disability an excuse for not living as normal a life as possible; http://templegrandin.com/

My nephew developed meningitis while in the US Army. He was in the hospital for several months and later in therapy for years after the fact. Even today he still has certain issues he must deal with, especially in math equations. Yet he recovered sufficiently to retain his job in the maintenance and repair of military provisions. He understands he will never again be "normal" and he knows he must at times simply take another route to solving certain problems. I've seen no sense in him of seeing himself as disabled, just someone who occasionally needs some assistance to live a mostly normal life. Fortunately for him, he had the US military to draw on for healing. With the number of personnel returning from war with severe brain injuries the military has broken more than a bit of ground in overcoming the issues which would have left earlier generations of soldiers living on permanent disability with little hope for a better life. For many of the male victims of war it requires they first accept the idea they are no less human after they suffer a life changing injury. They will never again be what others expect as "normal" but they can certainly lead a very full life once they make up their mind to accept and deal with their permanent disabilities. I think if you read about these men and women a very huge sense of humor is one of the first things that needs to be developed before the rest of their life can be addressed.

Good luck with your student. If she has the attitude she can succeed, then there should really be very little that can stop her. Addressing the fact she can only take on the world on her own terms will be one of the most important things she - and you - can do.

[alma_shortscale]

I think that you are the problem here. You've got an idea of what it means to teach someone to play the guitar and it's not working for your student. So stop trying.

Have her bring in songs SHE wants to learn and help her learn to play them. When she starts to bring in songs that require a barre chord or two, teach her that / those barre chord/s. She'll let you know if and when she's ready for more.

[JanVigne]

GA, please, let me make clear I did not intend to blame you in any way for your student's problems. Obviously you care about her progress and her well being or you wouldn't have posted your questions here. You wouldn't have sought help from other instructors.

However, from what you've posted this is not a situation where your student will learn guitar in the usual manner. It does appear your student has a mild disability in regards to your lesson plan. When you think about it though, many of us live with some form of disability and we understand we can only function normally when we accept that fact and take steps to accommodate our "impairments". Few of us as we age are not in need of eyeglasses to repair our disabled vision. Without my glasses I couldn't post on this forum or live a life not well suited to the severely nearsighted. Many of us have the disability of tinnitus which makes a "normal" life a long forgotten experience. Neither is a disability which would allow me to call Uncle Sam and request a monthly check, but, in my case, they are flaws I have come to accept. I have a "disability" to memorize music. It is almost impossible for me to remember what I played yesterday unless I have the notation in front of me. It's an odd thing since I have two degrees in Theatre and have been on stage and in competitions where I needed to memorize long speeches. I can memorize technical data and concepts without problems and recall numbers from decades past. But recalling the structure of a song I played two hours ago? Not going to happen.

You mention your student has problems with fingerstyle techniques due to her inability to read notation. But, does she recognize finger patterns? If so, is it that important she play exactly what is notated as long as she can play something interesting? If she can memorize picking patterns and chord shapes, does it matter what's on the page if she makes the song her own?



"Sometimes it seems like she can't grasp a concept of tones and strings."


Based on what you have posted, my feeling is this and the theory surrounding it are where you are headed in the wrong direction. Tone deafness is a neurological issue; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_deafness

Any insistence she learn tones will be self defeating if she simply cannot grasp the auditory input. If you're teaching syllabus relies on tone recognition, then you and your student are walking against the wind in this case. Until her "disability" is recognized and accepted, this student cannot on her own overcome her innate deficit. If you would like to test your student for this disability, try this site; http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0823214755.htm

Your comments on changing to a left handed guitar does indicate there is also a bit of stubbornness on her part. This complicates matters but the two of you need to determine exactly what her issues are, whether they are neurological or self imposed and then discuss just what the two of you can accomplish and how. This may require you take an entirely unique approach to teaching this student how to play. I suppose the question to ask is, are you up to that task? I think you would grow as an instructor by dealing with this student's issues.

[j3ffr0]

If she played piano she probably read music. Your challenge is she can't relate it to the guitar. That's okay.

If her ear is good, then work with that. Work on ear training with her. Try music their (without the danged guitar) just plain simple theory. If she played the piano then she knows f# is the next higher pitch after f. She knows the next note higher after G# is A (not H). She knows there is a natural half step between b&c and e&f, because that's what the piano keyboard is.

You don't need all these chord diagrams. One bar chord of each form is enough if she knows theory. Relate the stuff back to the piano keyboard. You can teach a person a lot about the guitar with the piano.

Just some ideas.... The folks I've had with a piano background generally pick it up quite fast. If they do struggle it's with the fretboard, but I find tying things back into theory and sometimes the piano keyboard helps. I haven't had anyone who has as many issues with the fretboard as your student though. Good luck to you both!

[Fatfingerjohn]

Hi,

This may be of little help, but I'll throw it in anyway and wait for a few cries of 'no way' which may follow. And let me start by saying that, if I'd learnt the notes on the fretboard a lot earlier I'm sure that I would be a better guitar player now. But, having said that ....

I learnt basic chords from chord diagrams when I started 40 years ago. Allow me a 25 year break when I played very little then call it 15 years ago. And, until the last 3 years I couldn't tell you a single note on the fretboard other than the names of the open strings and even then they weren't relevant to me and I kept forgetting them. Once I'd pretty well mastered the 'shapes' of all of the major chords (apart from B) and nearly all the 7ths, and many of the major 7ths, most of the playable minor chords without using barres, and watched other people playing what turned out to be some sus chords, add 9ths etc without EVER knowing what they were or meant, just what they sounded and looked like, then I could play along pretty well to most accompaniments. I didn't know that a minor chord was the result of a dropped halftone on the 3rd. I didn't know the theory of chord progressions, 1st, 4th, 5th etc. The dusty end of the fretboard was unknown territory to me. I played mainly in the keys of C, G, with a bit in keys of D and A and used a capo frequently to match the pitch of my voice. And of course I didn't have the advantage of youtube back in those days to watch. I never touched a piece of tab until a couple of year ago.

I have the advantage of having a pretty good ear; I could hear the chord changes pretty early and sense when a minor was required etc. But I'd have to experiment to work out which one; it didn't take long.

I played around some folk clubs with a mate and even did a few gigs and got on fine.

So, my message is that she does not necessarily need to understand what the individual notes are in the early days to be able to play to a reasonable standard with chords and accompaniment. (I'm sure the story is different if she wants to solo or play classical).

Thus, I would support others who are saying 'just get her to play' and don't get hung up on theory of why, what etc. And, I repeat, this may not be the best way to become a very good player, and probably not even a reasonable player. But it was a lot of fun on the way and that's the main point. Later on then she can get into the why's and wherefore's.

Good luck.

[VintageV400]

concentrate on her strengths rather than her weaknesses

encourage what she is able to do

don't let the fact that teaching her is becoming quite difficult become a problem

minimise the time spent on tasks which she finds too difficult, but don't give up on them completely

I suggest these steps will help while you are in the process of figuring out how to teach her the tasks that she finds difficult

[bobdillan]

Maybe try to take her through Alfred's basic guitar method 1. It starts very basic and puts everything together very nicely. It is how I am starting and it has done me well so far. Take a look at the book and see what you think. I agree don't focus on what she can't do.