experiment

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Earl49

I have also tried playing some of my slack-key repertoire on ukulele. Slack-key guitar mostly uses an open G or taro patch tuning (D-G-D-G-B-D). On the uke, you don't have the fifth and sixth bass strings. You can get the same intervals as on the upper four of the guitar (pitchwise) by tuning the A (1st) string down to G, so you get G-C-E-G, which happens to be an open C tuning. The turnarounds and harmonized melodies sound good, but overall it loses something without the alternating bass underneath. Again, I use a low G string on my ukes for fingerstyle work, specifically because it better emulates the guitar.

Tony, I didn't take your post as bragging about a high $$$ uke. If you could get such an awesome instrument traded even up for a guitar that you were not using anyway, then more power to you! BTW I have played fancy ukes that retailed for twice that. Awesome, but just not for me personally. No reflection on your choice.

Thanks Earl. I really don't know anything about ukuleles, so this one is my first. I was quite surprised at how many people seem to be playing uke these days. All the music stores seem to have them and various books to learn from. I see lots of web sites containing all manner of uke information and products. I had no idea about this. I was so impressed with Nate's fingerstyle playing that I felt that a trade for a decent ukulele was more interesting than going through the hassle of selling my guitar. It will definitely be a new musical direction for me. I don't think I know enough about ukuleles yet to really appreciate what I have, but I am sure over time I will fully appreciate it. It was the sound that sold me. I have been playing musical instruments long enough to recognize when something sounds really good.

I have played around with open tunings on guitar on and off for quite some time, though other than playing a tune or two of slack key, I don't claim experience with that style. However when you said:

The turnarounds and harmonized melodies sound good, but overall it loses something without the alternating bass underneath.

...I could see that trying to play guitar material on a ukulele might result in the overall sound losing something. What impressed me about Nate's playing was that it really seemed as if a complete arrangement was coming out of the ukulele, and I think it had more to do with his abilities as a player/arranger than it did with the quality of the ukulele. It sound like there was a lot going on, and I don't mean that frantic sort of thing where the player is trying to get out as many notes per second as possible, but instead that the notes were all so well placed that the effect was to fill out the sound in a way that suggested more than 4 strings on such a small instrument. That is what I want to do. He leveraged the qualities of the ukulele, rather than try to shoehorn a guitar arrangement onto the uke and have to make sacrifices. I noticed that he really used that high g to really good advantage and came up with his own unique sound. I was very impressed, and feel that I will explore and find that sound with the traditional tuning on my ukulele. I have yet to see a video on Youtube that captures that quality. I am sure if he can do it, there are probably many people who can. I just have not found them on Youtube yet.

Tony

[fazool]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

What??? This thread is almost entirely about playing. I have mentioned in some of my posts about my new uke. I am amazed that these instruments can cost that much, so I felt it was interesting and I am in the throes of a new instrument. I have never seen anybody rain on somebody else's new instrument except your post which is really an exaggeration and in another thread somebody else took a pot shot under the guise of a "sorry...". Please don't continue down this path, and instead join in the rest of the discussion if you care to. As far as "battleground", I really hope not. There is nothing to fight about, but a lot to learn from each other. Please don't make it otherwise. I don't know you, so I apologize if you are kidding and I am taking it wrong.

Thanks,

Tony

OK, at home now with a little more time to reply.


Actually, I thought the initial premise was very interesting. I read it to mean that you traded instruments and got a new one. And, this time. you were going to try a new method of learning - totally on your own and by ear. Which is a valid way for some (Eddie van Halen once said he had no influences because he spent all his time trying to play all on his own).

I thought that would spark an interesting theory discussion (argument).

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by fazool

OK, at home now with a little more time to reply.


Actually, I thought the initial premise was very interesting. I read it to mean that you traded instruments and got a new one. And, this time. you were going to try a new method of learning - totally on your own and by ear. Which is a valid way for some (Eddie van Halen once said he had no influences because he spent all his time trying to play all on his own).

I thought that would spark an interesting theory discussion (argument).

You read correctly, and other than my talking a bit about my new ukulele, we have pretty much discussed playing. There was definitely NO cash involved, so having an expensive uke is not showing any wealth or anything like that. I really, really hate selling and would rather trade for something I can use or consign through a shop I trust, which I have done with The Podium and would do again if the need arose.

I am definitely going it alone, but this time around, with the benefit if hindsight. I know much more theory than is useful musically, but diatonic theory in its basic form will serve well for determining key, building chords on the fretboard, knowing what the chords in a given key are, etc. So really the "ear" part is picking out the melody and determining when something I am playing to flesh out an arrangement sounds good to me.

To me, if I were to work with some ukulele method, I would be teaching myself to become dependent on thinking like that method. Unfortunately, a method usually involves memorizing a bunch of chord forms and learning to strum these to develop facility moving from one chord to another.

I would MUCH prefer to know where the notes are on the fretboard (uke or guitar), how to spell chords, and then apply that to fleshing out an arrangement once I have picked out the melody and determined a suitable key that sits well on the instrument. I think that is a far more creative approach. Starting fresh with no muscle memory or knowledge of the uke will really test my approach to see if I am full of BS or onto something far more useful than how music is usually taught. I fully realize, especially looking around the internet, that anything I come up with in terms of learning methodology, even picking up the ukulele, or whatever, has been done by literally millions of people already. But it is still a new thing for me.

Tony

[Luke_]

Speaking of ukes.... http://youtu.be/VznAYy5yL2A (cough!)

Joplin sounds awesome on anything.... Was him right?

[mc1]

Originally Posted by Luke_

Speaking of ukes.... http://youtu.be/VznAYy5yL2A (cough!)

Joplin sounds awesome on anything.... Was him right?

that was a few different forms of awesome. i have to start a thread about that pick.

[rickwaugh]

Interesting. You and I seem to have arrived at the same point.

Been playing for 40+ years. My ear is not as good as it should be. I write instrumental music, but it comes not from hearing something, but from noodling and finding something I like, then building on it. I have a fair background in theory now, and it's certainly helped, but I'm in a rut.

So I did two things. One, started studying a guitar conservatory syllabus, not for classical but modern music, Conservatory Canada's Contemporary Idioms for Guitar. Part of the curriculum is ear training, in a few different shapes and forms. Time to learn if I can really do it, or I've just been fooling myself. Six months in, the results are good. Long way to go yet, but I can recognize most of my intervals, and chords and melodies are getting better and better

The other thing came about because a friend started to build musical instruments. He was building all kinds of odd things, mandocellos, and tenor guitars. And they were getting better and better. We went away with them over Christmas, and he had his latest tenor, and I had some fun playing it. The light went off. He had been talking about starting to build for cash, to make enough to at least pay for his hobby. So I asked him to make me a tenor, and he is charging a crazy reasonable price, just to cover wood and parts. It's smaller than a normal tenor, and instead of being tuned CGDA, it's GDAE, like a mando or violin. I like the smaller size, and the fact that I can pick up classical violin and fiddle tunes for it. But mainly, I was thinking like you - get the thing, and play it for a while, just by eear, and see what I can pick up/pick out. It's tuned differently, in fifths, not fourths, so my normal reference points will be out of whack. At the same time, it's only four strings, tuned in even intervals, to make it a bit easier. He is almost finished, and it's a gorgeous little instrument - black walnut back and sides, and a sitka bearclaw top. So, we'll see how the experiment goes, but I'm pretty sure I'm really going to enjoy it.

Here's the top. As you can see, not just bearclaw, it's bearclaw.

[rickwaugh]

Originally Posted by Luke_

Speaking of ukes.... http://youtu.be/VznAYy5yL2A (cough!)

Joplin sounds awesome on anything.... Was him right?

Good lord. That's insane. Thought the uke might explode about half way through.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by rickwaugh

Interesting. You and I seem to have arrived at the same point.

Been playing for 40+ years. My ear is not as good as it should be. I write instrumental music, but it comes not from hearing something, but from noodling and finding something I like, then building on it. I have a fair background in theory now, and it's certainly helped, but I'm in a rut.

So I did two things. One, started studying a guitar conservatory syllabus, not for classical but modern music, Conservatory Canada's Contemporary Idioms for Guitar. Part of the curriculum is ear training, in a few different shapes and forms. Time to learn if I can really do it, or I've just been fooling myself. Six months in, the results are good. Long way to go yet, but I can recognize most of my intervals, and chords and melodies are getting better and better

The other thing came about because a friend started to build musical instruments. He was building all kinds of odd things, mandocellos, and tenor guitars. And they were getting better and better. We went away with them over Christmas, and he had his latest tenor, and I had some fun playing it. The light went off. He had been talking about starting to build for cash, to make enough to at least pay for his hobby. So I asked him to make me a tenor, and he is charging a crazy reasonable price, just to cover wood and parts. It's smaller than a normal tenor, and instead of being tuned CGDA, it's GDAE, like a mando or violin. I like the smaller size, and the fact that I can pick up classical violin and fiddle tunes for it. But mainly, I was thinking like you - get the thing, and play it for a while, just by eear, and see what I can pick up/pick out. It's tuned differently, in fifths, not fourths, so my normal reference points will be out of whack. At the same time, it's only four strings, tuned in even intervals, to make it a bit easier. He is almost finished, and it's a gorgeous little instrument - black walnut back and sides, and a sitka bearclaw top. So, we'll see how the experiment goes, but I'm pretty sure I'm really going to enjoy it.

Here's the top. As you can see, not just bearclaw, it's bearclaw.

Rick, thanks for this post! I suspect that more than a few guitar players here are at least somewhat frustrated after some years of playing, and may be looking for new directions. There may be some hesitance on the part of some to come right out and admit it, since there is a lot of time invested in both playing and purchasing guitars. Clearly, there are others who are doing well and have no such issues. This thread is turning out as I hoped. Most of the posts here have been on topic and we are finding out we are not alone in this.

Your new instrument looks like it will turn out to be a very fine one indeed, which can also be quite motivating. Though one or two have scoffed at the price of ym ukulele, I have to admit the beauty, good intonation, and quality of it certainly make it attractive to play. A good instrument is just that, and can serve to make the player want to step up to its quality.

I took Tom Paldanius' play by ear course last fall and thought it was worthwhile, I still had a lot of "history" and conditioning on the gutiar, and simply needed to get to a fresh start to explore the direction I want to go in. I thoguht about other instruments I might want to play and thoguht that something that was more limited in certain respects than the guitar, might be a good way to go. A flute, for example, plays only one note at a time and would be a good way to focus on just the melody. Of course, an inexpensive recorder would provide the same limitation. I have read on several occasions, that one approach to bringing out creativity is to greatly limit the scope of the exercise. Writers, for example might try to explore a subject in, say, 100 words or less. So choosing an instrument that is far less capable in terms of range, number of strings, etc., would offer the same sort of thing.

A person could take strings off the guitar, put a capo up the neck, or otherwise limit its capabilities, but to me, just completely getting away from it for a while seemed more useful.

My uke is obviously very small. It is really easy to take it out of its case (just like a miniature guitar) and quickly pick out a melody or two. I have been doing that for a few days now and am getting better at it. I just did "When You Wish Upon A Star" this morning before leaving for work with very little trouble. Over the past few days, I have gone through nursery rhymes, Christmas carols, Beatles tunes, and a few standards. This is truly the most musical fun I have had in a long time. I just pick a starting note and go. I don't know what key it is in until I have played enough of it to recognize the pattern of sharps, flats, or none. Then I know what chords I can play with the melody using simple diatonic harmony (I ii iii IV V vi vii (usually sub V)), and that is all the theory I need - none of all the stuff tossed around in the "Play" sub-forum by people we have never heard actually PLAY anything.

My goal is that if somebody says "can you play...", if I can hum the melody, I am right on it - no repertoire to have to work at to memorize. I woud MUCH rather have a very few simple diatonic harmony "rules" (the harmonized scale for chords in the key), a solid skill at instantly finding the melody, and the fretboard knowledge (whether guitar or uke) to put nice accompaniment chords moving under the melody to make a pleasing arrangement on the spot. Now, I can see the light at the end of the tunnle. Just continue doing what i am doing and it is already starting to come together even after a few days. I suspect a few months of this and I will be ready to play something worthwhile for other people, and eventually try this on guitar.

When I step back and think about it, having played since the early 70s, it is truly bizarre that I can't do this already on guitar. How many guitar players, if asked to play "Happy Birthday" at a party can do it? Well, I am finally fixing that. Music is becoming fun again, rather than work at having to build repertoire and maintain it, with the limitation of the size of that repertoire being how much I can hold in my head at one time. If we did that with our ability to converse (i.e. having to memorize a script in order to any anything), the p[rospect of easy conversation would be just an unreachable dream and participating in threads like this would be almost impossible and certainly not very interesting.

I want my approach to playing tunes to be much like having a spontaneous conversation. The first step to getting there is to admit the embarassing truth that, despite years of playing, I am merely quoting other people. I can improvise playing lead in a band situation, but being able to take a known melody and spnotaneously make something of it is a skill I have not mastered. Then, I can proceed to solve the problem, which I am doing now. There is a real freedom in that, being able to play anything I want, any time I want, without having to learn off of a recording or from a book.

Since I am going to just continue what I am doing until I get really good at it, there is not much more I can add until I get to the point where I can start making Youtube videos of myself actually playing tunes using my methodology. I intend to continue to participate in this thread and any related threads, but I have laid out here exactly what i am doing and why in case others along a similar path can relate or still others are inspired to step out of their comfort zone. This is a very different way of thinking about music, that's for sure.

I don't even want to look at uke chord forms or any "how to play..." books or DVDs because that will get me approaching the instrument the same way I did with guitar, and that leads me to a place I want to get away from. For me, it is knowing the freboard and what sounds I want to get from it without regard for what the standardized ways of doing that are. I really don't see a need for a teacher for this approach. It really is a matter of just exploring by yourself until you find pleasing sounds on the instrument. The diatonic theory can be explained in less than 10 minutes and can be found everywhere on the net for free. It doesn't get any better than this.

Tony

[rickwaugh]

An old drummer friend that used to be roommate was also a guitar player. He liked to stay up at night and watch old movies. He started to work on figuring out songs by ear. And boy, did he get good at it. He was the world's finest "campfire guitar player." You could ask him to play anything, and he'd think for a few seconds, and play it. It was amazing, and I was envious.

Started on that website also last night. Melodies I'm good with now. Chords I'm still not so great at. But it's coming, and I'm with you. I know where I'm going.