Taylor guitar Expression System sound concern

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Paul98

Dear Swissguitar,

This is a short summary of the main differences - what I have learnt since I went to the Taylor factory on the Expression System (a move away from the traditional piezo under the saddle pickup.)

ES 1.1 - uses 1.5v batteries - magnetic system
ES 1.2 -uses 9v battery, has three magnetic sensors (1 in the neck joint and 2 on the sound board
ES 1.3 - uses 9v battery, has two magnetic sensors (1 in the neck joint and 1 on the sound board)
ES version 2 - incorporates the piezo sensor under the bridge (not under the saddle hence the use of 3 allen screws to adjust the right amount of pressure)

On the other hand, a large number perhaps even the majority of acoustic guitar brands including Martin uses under saddle piezo pickups.

So far, I have better luck with the under saddle piezo pickups then the Expression System by far...

Taylor makes very good sounding acoustic guitars but the Expression System certainly falls short and hurts it badly. Perhaps you might want to buy one without the pickup system and install any of the other "better sounding" pickup system. Fishman Matrix and K&K has one that sounds quite good...

Hope this helps.

You wrote: "ES version 2 - incorporates the piezo sensor under the bridge (not under the saddle hence the use of 3 allen screws to adjust the right amount of pressure)"

Actually, the new ES2 has its three piezo sensors behind the bridge-saddle with the sensor's base under the top and below the bridge-saddle with the sensor leads running up through the top and bridge to the sensors behind the bridge-saddle.

Regards,

SpruceTop

[Turp]

I have the latest ES. I use a TRS-XLR into a Balanced-Unbalanced inline transformer. Basically the transformer is XLR female-TRS 1/4"Male. I run this straight to a unbalanced signal chain which includes a Para DI and effects. I mostly omit the ParDI if the venue is less than intimate.
I play fingerstyle and prefer the ES because I get nice overall balance and the magnetic PU gives me nice string to string separation and a great treble response for leads.

I can't speak to to the problems the OP is experiencing because I haven't heard it. I can say I tried TRS-TRS and TRS-1/4 instrument both without transformer and I had a to push the gain to the extreme to get volume. My observation is the signal gain with the transformer no only provided better signal but a better overall sound. I'm no sound engineer, but It seems to me starting with a strong PU signal is much better than starting with a weak PU signal and then boosting the gain or volume.

I also have a LR Baggs Anthem in a similar guitar. Both PU's yields nice acoustic tone. The ES does have a better treble response to my ears. However, that might but be acceptable to some. I have heard complaints from one performer that the ES isn't as good for strumming. That might be so, I don't strum alot other that doing Jazz or Rock chord progressions.

I hope it works out. I would suggest trying a ($10-20) transformer before getting rid of it.

[briggleman]

Originally Posted by Turp

I have the latest ES. I use a TRS-XLR into a Balanced-Unbalanced inline transformer. Basically the transformer is XLR female-TRS 1/4"Male. I run this straight to a unbalanced signal chain which includes a Para DI and effects. I mostly omit the ParDI if the venue is less than intimate.
I play fingerstyle and prefer the ES because I get nice overall balance and the magnetic PU gives me nice string to string separation and a great treble response for leads.

I can't speak to to the problems the OP is experiencing because I haven't heard it. I can say I tried TRS-TRS and TRS-1/4 instrument both without transformer and I had a to push the gain to the extreme to get volume. My observation is the signal gain with the transformer no only provided better signal but a better overall sound. I'm no sound engineer, but It seems to me starting with a strong PU signal is much better than starting with a weak PU signal and then boosting the gain or volume.

I also have a LR Baggs Anthem in a similar guitar. Both PU's yields nice acoustic tone. The ES does have a better treble response to my ears. However, that might but be acceptable to some. I have heard complaints from one performer that the ES isn't as good for strumming. That might be so, I don't strum alot other that doing Jazz or Rock chord progressions.

I hope it works out. I would suggest trying a ($10-20) transformer before getting rid of it.

I have used your setup (Bold letter in your quote) for when I play to amps without a balanced input. Works very well and you get tremendous gain. Worked great on a Ultrasound DS4 Channel two also even though it had a balanced XLR input in that channel, the volume was very low on Channel two, nothing like Channel one which did not need the transformer.

I also plug straight into a mixer with the TRS/XLR cord without the transfomer and get fantastic volume and tone. When using effects I use the Pigtronix Keymaster pedal (and the same TRS/XLR cord) which is pedal board studio effects mixer which allows the signal to stay balanced while using an unbalanced effects loop. I have no need for a DI box since its built into the Taylor. I really wish the original poster would have found a good Taylor tech. I had issues with mine at first and it turned out to be bad body sensors. Now, I was told that they contain a magnetic fluid and it can sometimes dry out is there is a defect in the casing. In any event, that fixed my issue.

Yes, I am civil today, its morning, no martini's yet!

Brad

[Guitarplayer_PR]

After I bought my Taylor 414CE and after some analysis (don't mentioning it totally failed me a few hours ago), I decided to take off the ES and put an LR Baggs Anthem SL. No matter how much I tweak the sound, when I'm fingerpicking or soloing, it sounds. . . quite "digital." It's not a BAD sound, but not an ACOUSTIC GUITAR sound either.

[c70man]

Baggs M1.....with volume control......a real natural sound with little feedback if any. Should be able to walk in a box store and try one on your guitar....worth your time.

[6L6]

Welp…

It’s now April 14, 2022 and I have the same problem as the OP back in the day.

I bought a new 2022 Taylor 214ce QS Deluxe Limited. It sounds fine unplugged but horrible when plugged straight into either my Fishman Loudbox Mini or Performer amps. Very raspy sounding.

I also own an older Taylor 214 and 114 equipped with K&K Pure Mini pups. Both sound GREAT when plugged into the same amps.

I checked into swapping out the ES2 system in my new Taylor for a K&K, but it turns out to involve much more than a simple swap out.

This is all very disappointing, but after extensive Google searches it appears I am not alone in my distaste of Taylor’s ES2 pickup system.

[waterlooz]

I have a brand new 312ce and have owned several other Taylors in the past. They lean to the bright side (as I wanted when purchasing-even unplugged) but mine have never sounded shrill. I have made adjustments with the hex screws to dial the sound but for me it comes down to the preamp especially when feeding a mixer or small acoustic amp....except for one which I will get to later.

My tone quest for both the ES2 and K&K (in the Collings) included the below experiences:

The K&K pure XLR did not suffice although I did like how it set the sound further back in the speaker when monitoring. Ultimately, I found it thin and the EQ never did the job I thought it could.

The newer Rupert Neve channel was a bit to forward in your face to my liking. It's not like it was awful, just not the flavor/color I wanted on my signal.

The Fire Eye RedEye solved the problem for me and I think is quite good paired with the ES2 and the K&K.

I also have tried my passive Radial JDI with the ES2, which is quite nice and definitely has plenty of instances where it shines.

Also, I am curious to hear how the new Sunn Audio DI sounds? It looks like a contender!

All that said, if I go direct from my 312ce into my Schertler Jam 150, it's butter. It sounds amazing. If I run it through my RedEye, it's great less 5mm. The bottom line is the less stuff one runs their signal through, it typically sounds better. Every pedal, pre, etc., adds color or accentuates specific frequencies which can help or destroy the original sound.

It's a bummer to read so many folks are struggling with their ES systems. It's supposed to be a strength of the Taylor. I hope Taylor does something for everyone having issues.

[6L6]

I’ve decided to solve my problem by unloading my new guitar and eating the financial loss.

No more Taylor’s for me unless they are older ones with no electronics. Then the K&K gets installed.

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by waterlooz

I have a brand new 312ce and have owned several other Taylors in the past. They lean to the bright side (as I wanted when purchasing-even unplugged) but mine have never sounded shrill. I have made adjustments with the hex screws to dial the sound but for me it comes down to the preamp especially when feeding a mixer or small acoustic amp....except for one which I will get to later.

My tone quest for both the ES2 and K&K (in the Collings) included the below experiences:

The K&K pure XLR did not suffice although I did like how it set the sound further back in the speaker when monitoring. Ultimately, I found it thin and the EQ never did the job I thought it could.

The newer Rupert Neve channel was a bit to forward in your face to my liking. It's not like it was awful, just not the flavor/color I wanted on my signal.

The Fire Eye RedEye solved the problem for me and I think is quite good paired with the ES2 and the K&K.

I also have tried my passive Radial JDI with the ES2, which is quite nice and definitely has plenty of instances where it shines.

Also, I am curious to hear how the new Sunn Audio DI sounds? It looks like a contender!

All that said, if I go direct from my 312ce into my Schertler Jam 150, it's butter. It sounds amazing. If I run it through my RedEye, it's great less 5mm. The bottom line is the less stuff one runs their signal through, it typically sounds better. Every pedal, pre, etc., adds color or accentuates specific frequencies which can help or destroy the original sound.

It's a bummer to read so many folks are struggling with their ES systems. It's supposed to be a strength of the Taylor. I hope Taylor does something for everyone having issues.

I have a post earlier in this thread but can confirm I’m still happy with my Taylor with the ES2. It’s always worth tweaking the adjustment screws because the tension on the saddle makes a difference.

I ran my Taylor through my friend’s Pz-pre at a gig recently (mine is having new switches installed) and to me it has never sounded so good!

[martingitdave]

Active pickups like ES2 don’t require an active preamp like a passive pickup. It can do more harem than good. I’ve found that when running sound a passive pickup works well with a preamp and/or active DI. The active pickups often sound better with a simple passive DI.

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Active pickups like ES2 don’t require an active preamp like a passive pickup. It can do more harem than good. I’ve found that when running sound a passive pickup works well with a preamp and/or active DI. The active pickups often sound better with a simple passive DI.

It depends what you are using the preamp for. For the functions of a pure DI, yes a passive is often as good or better than an active (depending on the DI of course, I will happily use a Radial J48 on anything). On the other hand, a preamp with a built in xlr-direct out does more than just balance the signal for connection to a mixer or stage box. The built in preamp on the ES2 is a decent piece of kit but even in ideal circumstances the on board EQ is still rather limited. A sweep or fully parametric eq is the most powerful tool for tone shaping on stage, especially if you don’t have the luxury of a good sound tech to dial in the sound for you.

As you say, when you are running sound your experience mirrors mine: passive pups need active DI, pups with onboard electronics sound good with passive (but can sound great with active as well, see my comment above re J48).

[Joe.Manganese]

The Tailor 514CE i was purchasing had great sound unplugged but once plugged it sounded so bad that i gave up buying.

Ended up buying a 514C and had a luthier install Baggs Anthem, now i am very happy.

Expression system is a joke.

[6L6]

Originally Posted by Joe.Manganese

The Tailor 514CE i was purchasing had great sound unplugged but once plugged it sounded so bad that i gave up buying.

Ended up buying a 514C and had a luthier install Baggs Anthem, now i am very happy.

Expression system is a joke.

I agree 100%.

[waterlooz]

6L6, What kind of strings are you using on your Tayor?

[SpruceTop]

At this moment, I'm playing my 2016 Taylor 614ce ES2 with its original, still-sparkling, six-year-old Elixir strings through my LR Baggs Synapse Personal PA and everything sounds wonderful. No complaints about the ES2 from me.

Possible Taylor woes:

1) The always possible on any brand of guitar "string-ping/sitar thing" on the G and D strings may be present;

2) If your Taylor has undergone any wide-range humidity fluctuations since its ES2 three-piezo, Allen-head adjusting screws were factory set you may have to adjust them with a .050 Allen wrench to get the best-amplified tone from each pair of strings.