Why does Em key has A instead of Am?

[jaymarsch]

Another aspect to this that I have learned is that there are some chord progressions that songwriters may use that my ears are not used to hearing. It may sound at first out of place or dissonant. I get curious about why a composer may have made that decision. I remember when I first heard diminished chords being used in an otherwise pretty simple song, it sounded really off to me. After I listened to it a number of times, I began to hear what it was contributing to the overall melody.
This is just to say that as you open your ears to different modes and scales, you discover you have more choices as a songwriter.

Best,
Jayne

[Mystery123]

Thanks for replies.
I need to read more on theories.
My main question was why specifically Am was replaced by A?
Yes it sounds good but I am looking for a theory that mentions what minor chord should be replaced with a major.
Why Bm was not replaced by B instead of Am by A?
In Em key, Am is iv so is there a theory that mentions iv chord in a minor key can be replaced with major?
That's what I was getting at.

The song is a folkpop (mix of folk and pop) from Nepal.
For those who are interested here it is:

Pallo Dada Ma - The Axe Band
Intro tabs:
E:........................................2....0.0 .0.0.............................................. ...
B:...............................0h3.............. .......3.3.3.3......3.............................
G:.................0...0h2........................ ...................4.....4..2..0.2.0...........
D:.........0h2.................................... ...............................................4.2 ..
A:0h2............................................. .................................................. .....
E:................................................ .................................................. .......
E:.5s7..10..7.....................5s7..10..7...... .........................
B:..................10..8.10..7................... ..10.8.7.5......7....... x2
G:................................................ ..................................

Em............D....Bm............Em
Pallo dada ma, baseki kanchhi
Em................D............A.................E m
najiskyau malai ma ta pardeshi manchhe
Em...........................A.................... ............Em
bholi farki auchhu ki audina, timilai laijana paudina
Em....................A............F#m............ ..Em.........
maya hai basla dui din ko jivan ko tungo paudina
Em............D.....Bm...........Em
Pallo dada ma, baseki kanchhi
Em................D............A.................E m
najiskyau malai ma ta pardeshi manchhe

Em.................D...........
nau ke ho oo, gaau kata
Em...............................................D ................
nau ke ho gau kata nasodha mero aljhela pirati
Bm................................G..............E m
fukauna feri muskil parla baseko pirati

Em...........................A.................... ............Em
bholi farki auchhu ki audina, timilai laijana paudina
Em....................A.............F#m........... ......Em.........
maya hai basla dui din ko jivan ko tungo paudina

Em............D.....Bm................Em
Pallo dada ma, baseki kanchhi
Em................D............A.................E m
najiskyau malai ma ta pardeshi manchhe
...

Here's recorded song:



Live by the Axe band in Dubai:

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mystery123

Thanks for replies.
I need to read more on theories.
My main question was why specifically Am was replaced by A?
Yes it sounds good but I am looking for a theory that mentions what minor chord should be replaced with a major.
Why Bm was not replaced by B instead of Am by A?
In Em key, Am is iv so is there a theory that mentions iv chord in a minor key can be replaced with major?

Well, as I said before, theory doesn't say what "can" or "can't" be done, and doesn't explain "why" some things are done. It just observes what is done, and invents names for everything so we can describe music and talk about it.

Naturally, it also helps us make music because there are common formulas we can learn from theory.

The fact is that minor keys sometimes use A instead of Am, and sometimes B or B7 instead of Bm.

This is because the minor key has variable 6th and 7th degrees. The key of Em can have C or C#, and D or D#, at different times, depending on the sound the composer wants. This can all occur in the same song.

When only one of either note choice is used, then we can say the song is in a "mode":
Em with C and D (Am and Bm chords) = E aeolian mode (natural minor)
Em with C# and D (A and Bm chords) = E dorian mode - as in your case.

[rick-slo]

Music theory is mainly descriptive rather than explanatory. It's explanatory to the extent you
accept paradigms of custom (occidental music customs in this case) as some sort of truths.

Anyway the minor keys have more flexibility chord wise then major keys due to their variation
in scales. In the melodic Em scale A major is one of its chords so it fits in pretty easily to what
our ears are accustomed to hearing.

[Mystery123]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Well, as I said before, theory doesn't say what "can" or "can't" be done, and doesn't explain "why" some things are done. It just observes what is done, and invents names for everything so we can describe music and talk about it.

Naturally, it also helps us make music because there are common formulas we can learn from theory.

The fact is that minor keys sometimes use A instead of Am, and sometimes B or B7 instead of Bm.

This is because the minor key has variable 6th and 7th degrees. The key of Em can have C or C#, and D or D#, at different times, depending on the sound the composer wants. This can all occur in the same song.

When only one of either note choice is used, then we can say the song is in a "mode":
Em with C and D (Am and Bm chords) = E aeolian mode (natural minor)
Em with C# and D (A and Bm chords) = E dorian mode - as in your case.

I see. Little bit ahead of me on the theory.

This song fits E Dorian Scale Notes: E F# G A B C# D
So based on this scale, is it same formula for key progressions?
Maj min min Maj Maj min dim for major
and
min dim maj min min maj maj for minor?
That makes it G major key in dorian mode?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Mystery123

I see. Little bit ahead of me on the theory.

This song fits E Dorian Scale Notes: E F# G A B C# D
So based on this scale, is it same formula for key progressions?
Maj min min Maj Maj min dim for major
and
min dim maj min min maj maj for minor?

That's for natural minor (aeolian).

Originally Posted by Mystery123

That makes it G major key in dorian mode?

E dorian mode is relative to D major. To be pedantic, it shares the same notes as the D major scale, but is not "in the D major key".
The keynote of E dorian is E. Call it E minor with major 6th if you like. Nothing to do with G major!

The harmonised dorian mode would run: min min maj maj min dim maj - although, normally, modal music uses fewer chords than key-based music. This tune is unusual in using five chords.

[Erithon]

There are some excellent answers here, especially regarding music theory as a descriptive, not prescriptive, analytical tool and the Dorian mode. Many songs are written in Dorian (in fact, way back in the day it was the standard minor, not Aeolian). Scarborough Fair is a famous example.

I think it's also worth considering that the theory discussed so far is western music theory and, while it certainly can be applied to Nepalese music, I assume (I'm not an ethnomusicologist) that Nepalese music is not necessarily structured around European conventions. In short, it probably uses different scales and harmonies, maybe even intervals, than the music from which traditional theory developed.

That said, the song you shared is clearly played using western instruments and used western harmonies. But it is nevertheless possible that the progression is influenced by aspects of traditional Nepalese music.

[Mystery123]

Along comes another song that also is in the same pattern.

This one starts on Am.
Normally, I'd think Am is same as C major scale and will have C F G major and other minor chords.
However, one goes like this:

Am-Em-D-C-Am
G-Am-G-Am
D-Am-D-Am
---
Am-C-G-D
Em-D-G-Am

Instead of Am key, it looks like a G major key but resolves on 7th chord same as the one I initially posted where Em looks like in D major.

The minor chord it starts with is basically major of the 7th chord making it a G major progression of
ii-vi-v-iv-ii
i-ii-i-ii
v-ii-v-ii
---
ii-iv-i-v
vi-v-i-ii

Can I get away with this understanding that there is another version of minor scale that is basically major scale of the note before that?
I'm confused to say the least.

[JonPR]

This is dorian mode again!

As you say: "Instead of Am key, it looks like a G major key but resolves on 7th chord same as the one I initially posted where Em looks like in D major."

A dorian mode is "like A minor but with F# instead of". G major scale with A as keynote. It resolves to Am, so Am (not G) is the "i" chord.
So it's not a "G major progression", it's an "A dorian progression".

Am-Em-D-C-Am = i-v-IV-III-i

Is it making sense yet?

[Brent Hahn]

Funny -- every minor-key song I can think of has a major IV or V or both. Except for "Ain't No Sunshine."

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Funny -- every minor-key song I can think of has a major IV or V or both. Except for "Ain't No Sunshine."

Classically, a minor iv and major V are standard.
I think most minor key songs I know have a minor iv, but they commonly have a major IV as well. Minor v chords are rather less common, although aeolian bVIIs are very common (even alongside harmonic minor V).

E.g., the "key of A minor" might feature all the following:

i = Am; Am7, Am6, Am(add9, Am(maj7); A major (rare, as "picardy 3rd", only to end a song)
bII = Bb (from phrygian, rare); or Bb7 (jazz tritone sub for E7)
ii = Bm7b5 (in jazz), or Bm (dorian) in rock
III = C; Cmaj7; Caug, Cmaj7#5*
iv = Dm, Dm7 (aeolian); D or D7 (dorian)
V = E, E7 (harmonic minor); E7alt (in jazz); or Em (aeolian, relatively rare)
VI = F, Fmaj7; F7 (blues or jazz)
vi = F#dim or F#m7b5 (jazz only, rare); or F#m (rare, borrowed from A major)
VII (bVII) = G (aeolian or dorian)
vii(dim) = G#dim7 (harmonic minor, very common in jazz, rare in rock)

(* These are arguable harmonizations from harmonic or melodic minor, but usually a Caug or Cmaj7#5 is better seen as a partial altered E7. Of course, I'm not including possible chromatic passing chords or secondary chords, commonly found in jazz.)

The point being that the "minor key" has variable 6th and 7th degrees. The key of A minor can use F and/or F#, and G and/or G#, in melodies, or to create chords from.
IOW, there are not four separate minor scales (aeolian/natural, harmonic, melodic, dorian). That's an artificial theoretical construct. There is ONE scale with variable 6th and 7th - that's how minor key music actually works.
(You could even include a variable 2nd degree, seeing as a phrygian b2 occurs in some forms of rock, and b2 occurs as part of a jazz V7 altered scale.)

A tune that stuck purely to A natural minor (ABCDEFG) could be said to be "in A aeolian mode", and not "the A minor key". That does happen, of course. But in common parlance, of course, it's all the "A minor key".

[Mystery123]

Originally Posted by JonPR

This is dorian mode again!

As you say: "Instead of Am key, it looks like a G major key but resolves on 7th chord same as the one I initially posted where Em looks like in D major."

A dorian mode is "like A minor but with F# instead of". G major scale with A as keynote. It resolves to Am, so Am (not G) is the "i" chord.
So it's not a "G major progression", it's an "A dorian progression".

Am-Em-D-C-Am = i-v-IV-III-i

Is it making sense yet?

Clear as foggy windscreen.
I'll read on dorian but just to memorize it, is minor dorian same as major of 7th chord for chord progression?

For example,
1. The first song had Em with D G A major and Bm Em F#m minor chords.
That's all the chords from D major progression minus the C#dim.
Chords in key of D: D Em F#m G A Bm C#dim
2.The 2nd song starts with Am and has C D G major and Em minor chords.
All those chords are from G major progression minus the Bm and F#dim
Chords in key of G: G Am Bm C D Em F#dim

Will that apply to other minor dorian?
Looks like it does.
Bm dorian is A major progression
A major scale notes: A B C# D E F# G#
Bm dorian scale notes: B C# D E F# G# A

etc...
If that's the case, it'll be much easier to remember the dorian chords.
Just think of the key starts at ii note of the major.
Maybe is that how dorian made and I'm defining it in an easier way?
Other modes like Locrian maybe more complex...

[jseth]

mystery123 -

Basic Diatonic Chord Theory is what you are missing here... it is the template for most all of "modern" pop, rock, jazz and blues. The initial (and fundamental) teaching will give you the answers you seek, in EVERY key, not just one here and one there... of course, as with many endeavors, you can dig as deep as you want into it... but the basics will serve you very well with the songs you're learning to play at this time.

Kind of that "give a man a fish... or teach a man HOW to fish..." thing...

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Classically, a minor iv and major V are standard.

I don't know what you mean by "classically." But in any given key signature, the v chord is minor. To make it major you have to raise the 7 tone (in moveable-do solfége, the "si" preceding the high "do.") Notated, you'd have to write in the accidental (a natural or a sharp, depending).

[paulp1960]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

I don't know what you mean by "classically." But in any given key signature, the v chord is minor. To make it major you have to raise the 7 tone (in moveable-do solfége, the "si" preceding the high "do.") Notated, you'd have to write in the accidental (a natural or a sharp, depending).

It sounds like you are describing the harmonic minor scale with the major seventh interval. It suits i iv V7 progressions nicely.