An experiment with my Martin CEO7 / K&K / ToneDexter setup

buzzardwhiskey · #1 02-17-2018, 07:19 PM

This evening I've created four new maps using firmware version 1.32:

1) Shure SM57, 12" above the nut, parallel with the neck, pointed at the body juncture.

2) Shure SM57, below me, 6" away from the upper bout and side-body seam, pointed at the sound hole.

3) Miktek PM5, 12" above the nut, parallel with the neck, pointed at the body juncture.

4) Miktek PM5, below me, 6" away from the upper bout and side-body seam, pointed at the sound hole.

Tomorrow night I'm going to enlist the big PA in my church.

The hardware will be... guitar -> ToneDexter DI-out -> Schertler Unico DI-out -> Mixer set flat -> big PA speakers and subwoofers

I'll be out in the audience space. The idea will be to find the best map, ToneDexter config, Unico EQ combination when the PA is concert level loud.

I'll report my findings tomorrow night.

guitaniac · #2 02-19-2018, 08:13 AM

I've been considering this issue of using ToneDexter in a highly amplified setting, and here's my thinking on it.

At some point (as the sound level goes up), a significant portion of your pickup signal will be generated by the guitar top's interaction with speaker sound. This is especially true with top-responsive pickups like the K&K Pure Mini. My strong suspicion is that the speaker-responsive portion of the total signal will be significantly different (more ambient, at the very least) than the portion of the signal caused by the direct playing attack (with fingers or pick) on the strings. Its a relevant factor that the WaveMap has been specifically trained to process the raw pickup signal from your direct playing attack. It will likely over-process that portion of the signal which comes from your guitar top responding to a speaker sound which is already mic-like and more ambient from the room acoustics.

This problem will be most apparent for light-handed players who depend on the electronics to do most of the work. When using ToneDexter in a high-amplification setting, I've noticed that I seem to prefer under-amplifying and compensating with a harder string attack. The sound starts getting a little hinky when I crank the gain too much.

I'm going to start experimenting with a heavy rubber soundhole cover in the hopes that that will deaden the top responsiveness some and allow me to crank the gain a bit higher.

Another possible solution to this high amplification problem would be to create WaveMaps with a nice acoustic guitar and use those WaveMaps with a high-volume hybrid guitar like the Yamaha Silent Guitar or the Godin Multiac. The Audio Sprockets folks have already demonstrated that ToneDexter can effectively be applied to modeling.

guitaniac · #3 02-19-2018, 08:42 AM

BTW, buzzardwhiskey, I recall that you liked the DiMarzio Angel pickup somewhat. I've been thinking that an Angel/iRig mic combo might be very versatile for gigs ranging from quiet solo to loud band. That little iRig preamp can give you any mag/mic blend that you desire plus (up to) ten bands of automatically generated feedback notches.

The only drawbacks would be the little iRig preamp's low 3v power supply and the awkwardness of multiple wires hanging from the little belt-clip preamp. (I've witnessed the 3v power supply be a problem at a particular open mic where the soundboard was set up to accommodate hotter guitar signals. Fixing the problem would have been possible {for an experienced soundperson}, but would have required raising the master level and reducing all the other channel levels.)

SpruceTop · #4 02-19-2018, 09:57 AM

There's always the Phase Switch, too, to help control feedback issues but it may only help to varying degrees in various settings.

guitaniac · #5 02-19-2018, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

There's always the Phase Switch, too, to help control feedback issues but it may only help to varying degrees in various settings.

That brings up an interesting question. What happens when that more ambient speaker-responsive part of the pickup signal happens to be subtracting from (rather than adding to) the hand-generated part of the pickup signal? In either case, you wouldn't be getting the same purely hand-generated pickup signal which was used in the WaveMap training process.

guitaniac · #6 02-19-2018, 10:21 AM

FWIW, I tried the soundhole cover experiment in my basement this morning. It did seem to give me more clarity (and no need to roll back the character setting) at a painfully high amplification level. The noisy gig test will need to wait 'til Thursday.

AeroUSA · #7 02-19-2018, 10:54 AM

Buzzard I honestly think your problem is the K&K. Have you looked at James Ultra Tonic Pickup?

buzzardwhiskey · #8 02-19-2018, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

Buzzard I honestly think your problem is the K&K. Have you looked at James Ultra Tonic Pickup?

I have yet to perform the experiment I'd started the other day. I was exhausted yesterday. Perhaps this evening.

The K&K is certainly not without issues, though I haven't looked into anything else yet.

buzzardwhiskey · #9 02-23-2018, 05:32 PM

Here's my "new" setup for loud stages.

The ToneDexter is mapped with a "high fidelity" condenser Miktek PM5, 12" above the nut, parallel with the neck, pointed at the body juncture.

I'm using the Character knob at 12:00 and the treble is rolled off -3.0dB.

The ToneDexter DI-Out is coming into my Unico on the mic channel.

The guitar's K&K pickup is also coming in directly (skipping the ToneDexter) via a Galaxy Audio splitter into the guitar channel of the Unico.

The Unico will act as a stage monitor and it's DI-out will go to the board.

AeroUSA · #10 02-23-2018, 07:01 PM

You need to take away that much treble?

buzzardwhiskey · #11 02-23-2018, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroUSA

You need to take away that much treble?

Yes. When the volumes get really high, the treble that's enjoyable and "real" becomes way too much.

AeroUSA · #12 02-23-2018, 08:19 PM

I always seem to lack treble with a K&K...

varmonter · #13 02-24-2018, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buzzardwhiskey

Yes. When the volumes get really high, the treble that's enjoyable and "real" becomes way too much.

ahh I seem to remembering reading
about the Fletcher Munson curve on another
thread that explains why that is.
basically it's more in how the human ear perceives tone
as the volume increases. for those who "geek out"
on such things here's a link.

https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/fletcher-munson-curve/