Taylor Leo Kottke 12 String - tunings, string gauges, opinions??

[AndyC]

Hi Folks

I've been offered the opportunity to buy a mint condition 2004 Taylor Leo Kottke 12 string, which based on everything I have read about that model over the years, is very appealing.

(Caveat - I haven't yet played the guitar!!)

The guitar is currently strung to concert pitch with light gauge strings, which I understand is missing out on a lot of the capabilities of this instrument, as it is designed for heavy gauge strings to be tuned down to C#.

It's the tunings / string gauges that are making me question the suitability / flexibility of this guitar, as in addition to solo gigs I also regularly play with another guitarist in a duo. Transposing songs with a 3 step differential isn't always going to be practical if we maintain the same keys for the songs we perform together.

I'm thinking I have essentially 3 options:

1. Tune to concert pitch using light gauge strings - this makes it easy to play with others, but is missing out on that low end growl designed into the bracing and structure of the LKSM. (So what's the point....??)

2. Get a set of heavy (56's) strings and tune to C# - will get the bottom end that the LKSM is famed for, but unless capo's are used will be a pain to play along with other concert tuned guitars. (Question - does capo'ing this guitar ruin the tone??)

3. Maybe as a compromise I could put on a medium set of strings (54's) and tune down 2 steps to D? I don't believe this would over strain the neck, and it is easier to transpose two steps rather than 3.

I would really welcome any comments or input from anybody who has gone through this dilemma. I would love to add a 12 string to my arsenal, and I really think the Taylor LKSM is a rather special guitar!!

Many thanks.

[Robert M]

I would use lights and tune down !/2 a step. Then when you play with other people just capo on fret one. Or you could use mediums and tune down one full step and capo on two when you need standard pitch. Personally I would never use heavy's

[frankhond]

Leo tunes his 12 strings several steps down, and uses custom heavy gauges. If you want to play music like that, it’s a long and exciting journey, which I ventured on for several years before arm issues forced me to get rid of my 12 string. But Leo doesn’t play with other people much.

If you want standard pitch and jam with others, just use a 10 gauge set and tune as normal. The guitar has thinner, more scalloped bracing than regular Taylor models, which will respond to thinner strings as well. Don’t worry too much about what you read. It will still be one of the best 12 strings on the market.

Basically you choose between setting it up as a solo instrument with a special voice, or a versatile guitar for playing with others. This model will work great either way.

My experience with capo on a 12 string is that it is hard to get good intonation on all strings, because of the mix between thin and thick strings in the same courses. Some capos work better than others. My suggestion would be to find ways to transpose in your head instead, finding moveable voicings that maximize the unique voice of the 12 string.

[Aping Leo]

IMO if you want to tune it to pitch, buy a different 12 string. That model was designed to be tuned down to C#. Leo often tuned to C depending on the guitar according to him. In other words the sweet spot was either C or C#. I owned one for many years and recently sold it. I had Taylor install the electronics on it and was warned more than once by Taylor, to never tune it to concert pitch regardless of the string gauge. It simply was designed to be tuned down and tuning to pitch could potentially damage the guitar. If your interested in climbing down the Leo rabbit hole then go for it. If not find another 12 string because its just not that versatile of a guitar.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by frankhond

Leo tunes his 12 strings several steps down, and uses custom heavy gauges. If you want to play music like that, it’s a long and exciting journey, which I ventured on for several years before arm issues forced me to get rid of my 12 string. But Leo doesn’t play with other people much.

If you want standard pitch and jam with others, just use a 10 gauge set and tune as normal. The guitar has thinner, more scalloped bracing than regular Taylor models, which will respond to thinner strings as well. Don’t worry too much about what you read. It will still be one of the best 12 strings on the market.

Basically you choose between setting it up as a solo instrument with a special voice, or a versatile guitar for playing with others. This model will work great either way.

My experience with capo on a 12 string is that it is hard to get good intonation on all strings, because of the mix between thin and thick strings in the same courses. Some capos work better than others. My suggestion would be to find ways to transpose in your head instead, finding moveable voicings that maximize the unique voice of the 12 string.

This^^^frankhond is right on the money with his explanation!

This is a GREAT 12 string...no matter what gauge strings or what tuning you play it in!!!

The two things you need to consider beyond what has already been said is:

1. This is a jumbo size guitar, so you need to make sure you are completely comfortable playing a jumbo size body instrument. I think these are very comfortable jumbo bodies...the Kottke model...but...I like jumbo guitars. You need to be sure you like this one ergonomically.

2. You need...if possible...to play THIS guitar and see if you like THIS guitar.
If you have to buy it unseen and unplayed in person, then be sure you get a trial/inspection period to try it out, where you can return it if it is not to your liking.

Good Luck...these are really fine guitars!

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Glennwillow]

I have been a 12-string enthusiast since I was 18 years old, so that is almost 52 years.

I played a Harmony 12-string for years that was tuned where Leo Kottke plays, not because I wanted to, but because that 12-string could not handle tuning at standard pitch according to the manufacturer. I found that playing with other people using a capo was a pain, to the point where I really wanted a 12-string that could be tuned to standard pitch.

In 1975 I bought a used 1972 Guild F212 that could be tuned to standard pitch with a light gauge 12-string set. I got a tremendous amount of use out of this guitar. Recently I picked up a used Guild F512 and then gave the older F212 to my son. I like the F512 even better, and it's tuned to standard pitch with light strings.

I agree with Duffy, above, that the Taylor LKSM 12-string is an excellent 12-string and will sound good tuned down to Leo Kottke tuning with heavier strings or good tuned at standard pitch with a light gauge 12-string set.

Regarding where you should tune a 12-string, I think it depends on what you want. You could use a low-tuned 12-string in your solo act. But my own experience is that playing with others with a capo being moved around on a 12-string is just not workable because every time I would move the capo, I'd have to retune. I have used a 12-string with a capo to play with others when I was only playing one song using the 12-string and when the guitar was carefully tuned beforehand. But once you move a capo on a 12-string, forget it... It will be out of tune.

- Glenn

[AndyC]

Guys,

Thanks for all of the very helpful comments.

I am going to try out the guitar next week - as I mentioned, it has light guage strings on at the moment so I can't really expect the seller to swap 3 different string guages to let me hear all of the differences.

If it sounds good with light guage at concert then I will probably buy it - and my gut feel is that I will end up putting mediums (12 - 54's) on it and tuning it to D. (No doubt I will try the 56's at some stage and drop it down to C#).

Seems like there is a lot of love for this model though

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Aping Leo

IMO if you want to tune it to pitch, buy a different 12 string. That model was designed to be tuned down to C#. Leo often tuned to C depending on the guitar according to him. In other words the sweet spot was either C or C#. I owned one for many years and recently sold it. I had Taylor install the electronics on it and was warned more than once by Taylor, to never tune it to concert pitch regardless of the string gauge. It simply was designed to be tuned down and tuning to pitch could potentially damage the guitar. If your interested in climbing down the Leo rabbit hole then go for it. If not find another 12 string because its just not that versatile of a guitar.

My input from Taylor directly contradicts what you have said - they have advised that light guage strings on that guitar are fine to tune to concert pitch (they referenced the Elixir light guage set). I've also done the calculations you might expect on the various string tension calculators that are available on line and they also tell me that the strain on the neck will not increase by either using lights at concert pitch or mediums tuned to D.

[Aping Leo]

Originally Posted by AndyC

My input from Taylor directly contradicts what you have said - they have advised that light guage strings on that guitar are fine to tune to concert pitch (they referenced the Elixir light guage set). I've also done the calculations you might expect on the various string tension calculators that are available on line and they also tell me that the strain on the neck will not increase by either using lights at concert pitch or mediums tuned to D.

That may very well be the case as for strain on the neck. And I respect the fact that you have done your homework.. The Taylor rep I spoke with warned about the top and the bridge though and mentioned having one in the shop at the time with a crack down the center seam as a result of being tuned to standard pitch. Saying that's its simply not braced to be tuned to standard pitch. I should also add that this was back in 1994-5 I believe. I suppose its possible they made some changes in subsequent years but I honestly don't know. At the time Taylor did not have their own electronics and I was speaking to this rep as to what my options were from the factory. All I can say is he warned me more than once about tuning to standard pitch as did the shop I ordered the guitar through. Again, if your going to immerse yourself in Leo as I did, go for it. The sound of that instrument is unmistakably Leo especially if your more familiar with his latter years. If not I would go a different direction because IMO its just not that versatile an instrument. And I played it for years and years. It was designed and built to Leos liking and specs which are to be tuned down and growl. Just my opinion though. Go play it and if you like it then Jeds a Millionaire.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Aping Leo

That may very well be the case as for strain on the neck. And I respect the fact that you have done your homework.. The Taylor rep I spoke with warned about the top and the bridge though and mentioned having one in the shop at the time with a crack down the center seam as a result of being tuned to standard pitch. Saying that's its simply not braced to be tuned to standard pitch. I should also add that this was back in 1994-5 I believe. I suppose its possible they made some changes in subsequent years but I honestly don't know. At the time Taylor did not have their own electronics and I was speaking to this rep as to what my options were from the factory. All I can say is he warned me more than once about tuning to standard pitch as did the shop I ordered the guitar through. Again, if your going to immerse yourself in Leo as I did, go for it. The sound of that instrument is unmistakably Leo especially if your more familiar with his latter years. If not I would go a different direction because IMO its just not that versatile an instrument. And I played it for years and years. It was designed and built to Leos liking and specs which are to be tuned down and growl. Just my opinion though. Go play it and if you like it then Jeds a Millionaire.

If the overall string tension with lighter gauge strings is no greater than the tension that heavy gauge strings create at C#, then that tension is dispersed throughout the neck, top, bridge, saddle, nut - everywhere....! I can only imagine that the Taylor rep all those years ago was warning about tuning to concert pitch with heavy gauge strings - which I have no doubt would destroy this guitar very quickly.

[rmoretti49]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Regarding where you should tune a 12-string, I think it depends on what you want. You could use a low-tuned 12-string in your solo act. But my own experience is that playing with others with a capo being moved around on a 12-string is just not workable because every time I would move the capo, I'd have to retune. I have used a 12-string with a capo to play with others when I was only playing one song using the 12-string and when the guitar was carefully tuned beforehand. But once you move a capo on a 12-string, forget it... It will be out of tune.

- Glenn

Wholeheartedly agree with this. This is true, even with the best capo, and I have tried most.

OP asked for opinions from LKSM owners. I have a 1993 LKSM 12 string which I tune exclusively to standard pitch with light gauge strings. I typically use Thomastik-Infeld 10-43s or Newtone Heritage Series low tension strings of about the same size (there are some minor variations amongst the 12). The Thomastik are nice, tho not fully satisfactory. The Newtones, being round core, seem to be a bit much so not my favorites (I generally use Newtones almost exclusively on everything). I am recently finding that some guitars may actually prefer hex core whilst others like round core. The exploration continues. I use light strings due to loss of strength in fretting hand from the creeping effects of an ancient injury. I do have some heavier strings that I will try one day and lower the pitch on the LKSM, but, to answere OP's question, the LKSM does just fine at concert pitch with light gauge strings.

[frankhond]

The LKSM used to ship from Taylor with a heavy gauge set tuned to C#. In fact I recall reading something in a Taylor blurb about this and warning not to tune it up with these strings. So it may well have been the case that someone tuned his LKSM up to standard with a heavy set and cracked the top, which would cause a Taylor rep to issue warnings about standard tuning... Or a lemon LKSM cracked for no reason at all... who knows. But I see no reason why there would be a problem in standard tuning with 10 gauge strings. Experiment and have fun!

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by AndyC

Guys,



If it sounds good with light guage at concert then I will probably buy it - and my gut feel is that I will end up putting mediums (12 - 54's) on it and tuning it to D. (No doubt I will try the 56's at some stage and drop it down to C#).

Perfect, that's exactly how I'd approach it too.
Let us know how it works out.

[AndyC]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

Perfect, that's exactly how I'd approach it too.
Let us know how it works out.

Will do - thanks for the support !