Harmonics at the 5th and 7th frets

[Tailgate215]

12th fret harmonics are no problem, but 5th and 7th are progressively harder and lower in volume. Any tips about those frets? I'm using the same technique that I use on the 12th...it's just not clicking..

[robj144]

It maybe related to your guitar.

[muscmp]

a light touch is required.

play music!

[rick-slo]

Touch point for harmonics can be off center from where the fret is. It varies depending on which harmonic. Experiment!

[ChalkLitIScream]

I have found that where you pluck the string is also critical to get a good sound. 12 and 7th harmonics are great, but the harmonics on the 5th and 4/9th really need close attention of finger placement (of both hands) to get a clean sound. No doubt there is some physics and math wizardy going on that I dont yet understand.

For me, plucking in front of the soundhole on the 4th fret gives me a weak sound. I need to pluck somewhere between the saddle and the edge of the soundhole to get a clean sound. Try it!

[Big Band Guitar]

All of those harmonics are present when a open string is plucked. The 12th fret is half the string length also the strongest harmonic. So when you touch the string there you are damping out the primary tone. the next strongest would be either 1/4 string length or 1/3 not sure which one is stronger.

At 1/4 length you would be damping out both the primary and 1/2 length but not completely.

After 1/4 and 1/3 the rest of the harmonics are very weak and inaudible.

I'm sure someone will do the math. I did it 40 years ago and don't want to do it again. Not enough brain cells left.

[The Bard Rocks]

Yet, I watched a player getting perfectly audible harmonics at - get this - the 3rd fret. Yes, my harmonics at the 5th and some other frets are quieter and harder to get, but I have seen too many better players do them just fine. The distance between where your two hands touch the strings can make a difference on those hard-to-get harmonics.

[JonPR]

You need to pick the string in the middle of whatever string fraction is being created.
For 12th fret, the string vibrates in halves, so you can pick it almost anywhere between 12th fret and bridge (or between 12th fret and nut works as well).

For 7th fret (and 19th), the string vibrates in thirds, so you need to pick between fret 19 and bridge - or between fret 7 and nut, or between frets 7 and 19.

For 5th fret, it's quarters.

Of course, it's a lot harder to get the string moving in smaller and smaller fractions, and they are naturally quieter because the string isn't moving as much.

In short, pick forcefully, and pick close to the bridge. And be very precise with the touching finger.

The are also nodes over frets 4. 9 and 16 (1/5 string length). As well as a few closer to the nut.

[Tailgate215]

Originally Posted by JonPR

You need to pick the string in the middle of whatever string fraction is being created.
For 12th fret, the string vibrates in halves, so you can pick it almost anywhere between 12th fret and bridge (or between 12th fret and nut works as well).

For 7th fret (and 19th), the string vibrates in thirds, so you need to pick between fret 19 and bridge - or between fret 7 and nut, or between frets 7 and 19.

For 5th fret, it's quarters.

.

THANKS...your direction helped greatly! Getting closer to the sound I expect.....

[rick-slo]

For the loudest and clearest upper overtones just pick a pluck spot within a couple or three inches of the bridge.

Added benefit includes the speed and reliability of not having to search for the string divisional plucking points.

For example try a fairly rapid sequence of overtones up and down on frets 7-5-4-3+

[JonPR]

OK, here's all the harmonic position/pitch/frequency/tuning data you didn't really want to know... Pull out anything that seems useful or makes sense. Ignore the rest!

It's all on the A string because the math is easier to make sense of. Obviously harmonic nodes (touch points) are at the same positions on each string. Getting up to the 9th or 10th harmonic is possible, but it gets increasingly difficult (impossible) beyond there. The higher harmonics are all present in the string, but fainter and fainter and therefore less and less significant.


The "fret" column is the position of the node. Decimal points show approximate positions between frets.

The "out-of-tune-ness" is relative to Equal Temperament (tuner calibration), whereas there's a good argument for saying it's the harmonics that are in tune and the tempered notes that are out.

Harmonic series of the guitar A string

HARMONIC - FRET - FREQUENCY - NEAREST NOTE - cents away from ET   fretted equivalent
 1st        0       110 Hz          A                                string 5 fret 0
 2nd       12       220 Hz          A                                string 3 fret 2
 3rd      7, 19     330 Hz          E  (329.6)   2 cents sharp       string 1 fret 0
 4th      5, 24     440 Hz          A                                    "    fret 5
 5th    4, 9, 16    550 Hz          C# (554.0)  14 cents flat            "    fret 9 *
 6th        3       660 Hz          E  (659.2)   2 cents sharp           "    fret 12
 7th 2.7, 9.7, 14.5 770 Hz          G  (784.0)  32 cents flat            "    fret 15 *
 8th       2.3      880 Hz          A  (880)                             "    fret 17
 9th        2       990 Hz          B  (987.8)   4 cents sharp           "    fret 19
10th       1.8     1100 Hz          C# (1108)   14 cents flat            "    fret 21 *
11th               1210 Hz          D# (1244.5) 49 cents flat            "   (fret 22.5!)
12th               1320 Hz          E  (1318.5)  2 cents sharp           "    fret 24
13th               1430 Hz          F  (1396.9) 40 cents sharp
14th               1540 Hz          G  (1568.0) 32 cents flat
15th               1650 Hz          G# (1661.2) 12 cents flat
16th               1760 Hz          A  (1760)
17th               1870 Hz          Bb (1864.7)  5 cents sharp
18th               1980 Hz          B  (1975.5)  4 cents sharp
19th               2090 Hz          C  (2093.0)  3 cents flat

* nearest fretted notes (noticeably out of tune with the harmonic)

[ChalkLitIScream]

Originally Posted by JonPR

OK, here's all the harmonic position/pitch/frequency/tuning data you didn't really want to know... Pull out anything that seems useful or makes sense. Ignore the rest!

It's all on the A string because the math is easier to make sense of. Obviously harmonic nodes (touch points) are at the same positions on each string. Getting up to the 9th or 10th harmonic is possible, but it gets increasingly difficult (impossible) beyond there. The higher harmonics are all present in the string, but fainter and fainter and therefore less and less significant.


The "fret" column is the position of the node. Decimal points show approximate positions between frets.

The "out-of-tune-ness" is relative to Equal Temperament (tuner calibration), whereas there's a good argument for saying it's the harmonics that are in tune and the tempered notes that are out.

Harmonic series of the guitar A string

HARMONIC - FRET - FREQUENCY - NEAREST NOTE - cents away from ET   fretted equivalent
 1st        0       110 Hz          A                                string 5 fret 0
 2nd       12       220 Hz          A                                string 3 fret 2
 3rd      7, 19     330 Hz          E  (329.6)   2 cents sharp       string 1 fret 0
 4th      5, 24     440 Hz          A                                    "    fret 5
 5th    4, 9, 16    550 Hz          C# (554.0)  14 cents flat            "    fret 9 *
 6th        3       660 Hz          E  (659.2)   2 cents sharp           "    fret 12
 7th 2.7, 9.7, 14.5 770 Hz          G  (784.0)  32 cents flat            "    fret 15 *
 8th       2.3      880 Hz          A  (880)                             "    fret 17
 9th        2       990 Hz          B  (987.8)   4 cents sharp           "    fret 19
10th       1.8     1100 Hz          C# (1108)   14 cents flat            "    fret 21 *
11th               1210 Hz          D# (1244.5) 49 cents flat            "   (fret 22.5!)
12th               1320 Hz          E  (1318.5)  2 cents sharp           "    fret 24
13th               1430 Hz          F  (1396.9) 40 cents sharp
14th               1540 Hz          G  (1568.0) 32 cents flat
15th               1650 Hz          G# (1661.2) 12 cents flat
16th               1760 Hz          A  (1760)
17th               1870 Hz          Bb (1864.7)  5 cents sharp
18th               1980 Hz          B  (1975.5)  4 cents sharp
19th               2090 Hz          C  (2093.0)  3 cents flat

* nearest fretted notes (noticeably out of tune with the harmonic)

Ahh that explains why trying to tune with the harmonics for the B string throws things off. Harmonic on the 4th fret (G string in this case) would be 14 cents off!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by ChalkLitIScream

Ahh that explains why trying to tune with the harmonics for the B string throws things off. Harmonic on the 4th fret (G string in this case) would be 14 cents off!

Exactly.
Your tuner will tell you that. Set it to chromatic and play a 4th fret harmonic (or 9th or 16th, all the same note). Provided the string is exactly in tune, that needle will veer left of centre on the harmonic.
The 7th fret harmonic is 2 cents out, but that's negligible (IMO). It would take a really good tuner (and a really good pair of ears) to tell the difference.

When tuning to an open chord (for slide), however, you can tune the major 3rd pure (4th fret harmonic of the root string(s) with 12th or 5th fret harmonic of the major 3rd string), because the chord shapes you play are all single fret barres. If you use that major 3rd string for any other shape - ie fingers rather than slide - you will need to push it sharp a little (only needs a slight bend).

In standard EADGBE, the 14 cents is why beginners with good ears often think their B and G sound out of tune with each other, even when their tuner says they're OK. They're picking up the discrepancy in the overtones.
It's also one of the reasons rock guitarists play power chords. Distortion enhances the overtones, making the octaves of the major 3rd clash more noticeably with the 5th harmonic of the root. The reason is not necessarily clear, but the result is muddiness. Solution? Leave out the 3rd.

[Todd Tipton]

There are already great and detailed replies. And I second the advice given about a very light and precise touch in the left hand paired with a strong attack close to the bridge in the right hand.

Concerning the left hand, consider that a finger barely touching the string is sufficient to dampen the string. This is the exact type of touch required to play a harmonic because you actually ARE partially dampening the string. To understand this, consider a simplified understanding of what is physically happening on the playing length of the string:

When you pluck a string, you have one giant sound wave vibrating the entire length of the string. You also have two waves vibrating exactly twice as fast that are exactly half the size. They meet at the 12th fret. By having a good delicate precise left hand placement directly over the fret, you are dampening the large wave, but allowing the two half sized waves to continue vibrating. This produces the harmonic. Taking some time to really consider exactly what it is you are doing can make it far easier to achieve the results you want.

The series of harmonic overtones is nicely displayed on a vibrating string:

One half the distance produces two waves half the size.
One third the distance produces three waves one third the size.
One fourth, four waves.
One fifth, five waves, and so on.

Something else you can do is to begin producing those numerous harmonics that are produced between the 1st and 4th fret. They are easiest to produce on the sixth string. With the left hand, have a very precise but delicate touch. With the right hand, have a strong attack far closer to the bridge. Play rapidly with the right hand. As you pluck, allow the left hand finger to VERY SLOWLY and delicately move along the string.

Precision alone is very important and is worth its own paragraph. Be sure to use precision allowing the LEAST amount of left hand finger possible to come into contact with the string. Emphasize the left hand finger touching with the TIP of the finger and not just lazily placing on the string. Remember: you are trying to let those smaller waves continue to vibrate while dampening the others. This is why precision is so important.

As a side note, you can do this same exercise on the 5th string and will recognize the introduction to Billy Idol's White Wedding...LOL

In closing, playing around with more difficult harmonics will quickly develop the skills needed to play natural harmonics. Listen. Use the ear. Remember the left hand precision and why it is important. Remember strong attacks with the right hand closer to the bridge.

[Tailgate215]

OP here...my problem is solved. My issue is not my left hand, but the right striking distance from the bridge. Once I started striking 3 inches in front of the bridge, the harmonics sounded correctly..

Thanks All! Couldn't have done it without your help