Differences in Fretwire Hardness Between Brands?

[Hot Vibrato]

I've had a customer for years who wears out frets like nobody I've seen. He's not a pro, but he obviously plays a lot. I've done several refrets (complete and partial) for him over the last decade or so* - some of his guitars more than once. I've suggested stainless frets, but he insists that it changes the tone (I'm not so sure that's true). The latest one he has brought me is a strat that I had already refretted maybe three years ago, and the frets are definitely worn enough to justify refretting again.

He asked me if I used a different brand of fretwire on that guitar than I usually use, and wondered if maybe that wire is softer. I usually use Stew Mac wire, or the fretwire that Allparts sells. I've used Dunlop wire in the past too, and I always thought of them all as being relatively interchangeable, although there are some slight dimensional discrepancies.

Has anyone ever done hardness testing to see how the different brands compare? Does anyone have any opinions on one versus the other. I figured it's worth asking if anyone knows something I don't on the matter.

*Edit: It's been closer to twenty years. Man, time flies...

[mirwa]

Frets are unfortunately to small to hardness test using the deflection / rebound method, but maybe possible using a penetrator.

Nickel composition and heat treatment will always effect the end hardness.

I feel stewmac frets are very soft, but very well priced, so its a compromise.

Steve.

[Mischief]

Have you suggested Evo gold fret wire to him? They fall right in between the hardness of stainless and nickel. General consensus is no tonal change ( even from those opposed to stainless seem to like them) they are about as easy to install as nickel and are not noticeably harder on tools.

The only thing is some people say they don't like the colour however that seems to only be from those that decide on stainless or never had the wire installed. Those that have that concern and have the wire installed seem to be happy with the slight gold tone after its in place and is more subdued then they thought. It does not seem to clash with nickel or chrome tuners and gold tuners help bring the gold hue out more and is quite complimentary.

The most important part is that the general consensus is they last almost like stainless.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Mischief

Have you suggested Evo gold fret wire to him? They fall right in between the hardness of stainless and nickel. General consensus is no tonal change ( even from those opposed to stainless seem to like them) they are about as easy to install as nickel and are not noticeably harder on tools.

The only thing is some people say they don't like the colour however that seems to only be from those that decide on stainless or never had the wire installed. Those that have that concern and have the wire installed seem to be happy with the slight gold tone after its in place and is more subdued then they thought. It does not seem to clash with nickel or chrome tuners and gold tuners help bring the gold hue out more and is quite complimentary.

The most important part is that the general consensus is they last almost like stainless.

Had you not beaten me - I would have mentioned Evo. I agree that wear would no longer be a problem, with Evo frets, but I DO think that it changes the tone a little.
I had a Collings DS2h refretted with Evo a few years ago. I hear more attack, and treble with Evo than an equivalent guitar with standard frets.

This may not be a problem - the tone is certainly more "punchy" now.

[Mischief]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Had you not beaten me - I would have mentioned Evo. I agree that wear would no longer be a problem, with Evo frets, but I DO think that it changes the tone a little.

I had a Collings DS2h refretted with Evo a few years ago. I hear more attack, and treble with Evo than an equivalent guitar with standard frets.



This may not be a problem - the tone is certainly more "punchy" now.

It's always interesting to hear different peoples results. Have you noticed a consistent change with whatever strings you are using since the Evo or do you think that certain strings react to the harder frets more than others? I wonder too if certain guitars are more sensitive to tonal change with harder frets then others.

Having said that are you happy with the Evo gold? Would you choose the same fretwire again if you had to do it all over? Finally the "punchier" tone, do you feel it's, slightly better, slightly worse or neither just different/ other?

Thanks for your insight. I imagine it could help getting first hand opinions if the OP decides to recommend the Evo.

Cheers

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by Mischief

Have you suggested Evo gold fret wire to him? They fall right in between the hardness of stainless and nickel. General consensus is no tonal change ( even from those opposed to stainless seem to like them) they are about as easy to install as nickel and are not noticeably harder on tools.

The only thing is some people say they don't like the colour however that seems to only be from those that decide on stainless or never had the wire installed. Those that have that concern and have the wire installed seem to be happy with the slight gold tone after its in place and is more subdued then they thought. It does not seem to clash with nickel or chrome tuners and gold tuners help bring the gold hue out more and is quite complimentary.

The most important part is that the general consensus is they last almost like stainless.

I did a a refret with EVO for this customer a year or two ago, so he's aware of it. He was happy with the results, but I didn't think to ask him if that would work for him on this particular guitar. I think I will. Since he's familiar with the look, feel, and tone of this wire, there should be no surprises if he decides to go for it.

His guitar that I did the EVO fret job on had gold hardware, which I think is why he decided to give it a try. The gold color is definitely more subdued than the gold plating of the guitar's hardware, but it looks really nice. That was my first EVO fret job. It definitely "feels" harder than regular wire, but I didn't wince every time I cut a fret like I do with stainless. It sure polishes up nice. I wouldn't mind having EVO wire on one of my own guitars...

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

...I DO think that it changes the tone a little.

I've noticed tonal changes on guitars I've refretted with traditional fretwire. I put a lot of effort into making sure that the plane of the fingerboard (under string tension) is as geometrically perfect as humanly possible. This gives the strings as much room to oscillate as is possible, which results in a sometimes dramatic improvement in tone compared to the sound of worn frets on a wonky fingerboard (so it's hardly a fair comparison). I wonder if that's the case with your guitar, of if there is indeed an inherent tonal difference between the different wire alloys.

Originally Posted by mirwa

I feel stewmac frets are very soft, but very well priced, so its a compromise.

Interesting. I've done lots of fret jobs with Stew Mac wire. Has anyone else noticed this?


So the general consensus IS that stainless wire changes tone? I've done several stainless fret jobs over the years. The customers love it every time, and I've not heard any complaints about the tone.

[Hot Vibrato]

Just an aside: Does anyone know a reasonably priced source for Dunlop wire? I'd like to buy it by the pound. I detest those packages of pre-cut wire.

[rick-slo]

Most people say (including me) that stainless steel (or EVO gold) does not change the tone. I have had a few of my high end guitars refretted with stainless steel (and one with EVO (for the color aesthetic on a cedar top gold hardware guitar)). However you won't convince that customer you mentioned.

Regarding your specific question I highly suggest you read this thread (especially David Collings comments):

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/fretwire-not-size-but-hardness.623680/

[John Arnold]

http://store.jimdunlop.com/c/accesso...-fret-fretwire

[Hot Vibrato]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

http://store.jimdunlop.com/c/accesso...-fret-fretwire

Thanks for the link, John. It's quite a bit more than I'm used to paying for wire from Allparts, Stew Mac, and Jescar. I was hoping for a less expensive source, so I'll probably avoid using Dunlop wire when possible

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Most people say (including me) that stainless steel (or EVO gold) does not change the tone. I have had a few of my high end guitars refretted with stainless steel (and one with EVO (for the color aesthetic on a cedar top gold hardware guitar)). However you won't convince that customer you mentioned.

Regarding your specific question I highly suggest you read this thread (especially David Collings comments):

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/fretwire-not-size-but-hardness.623680/

Thanks for the link. Lots of good info. Dave Collins' hardness testing results have confirmed what I had suspected - that there's not much difference in the hardness of various brands of NS wire.

I seriously doubt that I would be able to hear the difference in tone between NS vs. stainless or EVO, and I wouldn't hesitate to use either on one of my own guitars. Again, a guitar with that's been properly refretted will always sound different from how it sounded with worn out frets - especially if the plane of the fingerboard is imperfect (and they always are).

Originally Posted by Mischief

Have you suggested Evo gold fret wire to him?

Update: The customer agreed to go with EVO gold wire, which Jescar sell in the 6105 size (.090" x .055) that he prefers. I think this is his favorite guitar, so it gets played a lot. The way this guy wears out frets, he certainly will put the EVO wire to the test, so it'll be interesting to see how it holds up. If anyone can wear it out, he can. And as I mentioned before, I've refretted another of his guitars with EVO, so there should be no surprises regarding tone or feel.

[Bruce Sexauer]

In the 6 or 8 years I have been using EVO wire as my go to, I have yet to do a single fret mill on any guitar due to playing wear and tear. If anyone at all has had an experience contrary to this I'd appreciate hearing about it. I do not know anything about metallurgy, and don't really need to, but it is clear there is more to wear characteristics than mere hardness as the EVO wire works compareably to traditional nickel wire, which cannot be said about SS wire.

People talk about the "gold" color of EVO wire as though it were a negative, whereas is most any other context it would be a positive! The color in this case is quite subtle actually, hardly garish, and is more in line with the color tone of most any guitar, especially as it ages. Personal I find it very pleasing.

[Jescar]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Frets are unfortunately to small to hardness test reliably.

Nickel composition and heat treatment will always effect the end hardness.

I feel stewmac frets are very soft, but very well priced, so its a compromise.

Steve.

Fret wire is easily tested for hardness and is part of our quality control procedure. We specifically produce our nickel silver wire in a greater hardness due to the quality improvements in wear resistance and feel. The only benefit of softer wire is a slight ease in installation for some high volume factory operations, but meaningless for qualified guitar techs.

As already stated the EVO material is an excellent solution for customers looking for a wear resistant fret wire that is similar to nickel silver in installation and workability characteristics.

Jeff
Jescar

[redir]

I've only ever used wire from LMI and Stew Mac and still have pounds and pounds of it but have been wanting to give Evo a try for a while now. I have had some players swear that their SS guitar tone is different. I've also had some swear that nothing is better than bar frets. I don't have the experience to know but I am one to believe that the neck and the fretboard have more to do with tone then most people might thing and so I can at least believe that fretwire is a part of that equation.

But is SS and or evo harder on guitar strings?

[Jescar]

But is SS and or evo harder on guitar strings?[/QUOTE]

From our experience and customer feedback, in a word, no. In fact a case can be made that harder wire with its tighter alloy grain structure and smoother surface quality would reduce abrasion against a string.

There is a much greater likelihood that a string will break at the bridge or tuner. If a string breaks at a fret it was probably long overdue for a change anyway!

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by redir

But is SS and or evo harder on guitar strings?

In my experience the opposite. SS and evo are harder metals but the fret crowns start out and remain smoother (if the tech did a good job), and thus are less abrasive on the strings than nickel silver ends up being.