Dovetail vs bolt on

[tahoeguitar]

I used the word touch-up wrong. I should have said the finish will need some attention whether it's wiping with a little alcohol, a spritz of butyl cellosolve or a light spot of lacquer.

I do mine with the guitar on its side. The steam goes where it will, and it will condense in the joint and run out in various inconvenient places as hot water. Of all the dovetail necks, Martins are generally the easiest to release and I can usually get these off in 5 minutes with minimal damage. I've had some trouble with Gibson necks on occasion... not done a guild yet.

My necks are glued at the FB extension so they require the same technique with a pallet knife and heating the FB to get them off the body, but once that's done you loosen two bolts and the neck falls off in your hand. Also no shimming is required.

[jonfields45]

I can understand the pleasure of crafting a fine piece of woodworking AS A BUILDER. But I no longer own a Martin and will never buy another dovetail or glued joint wooden guitar again. Given a reset costs $500-700, includes a lengthy wait, and the occasional less than ideal work I've seen done by people with fantastic reputations (typically a low saddle after the repair), a glued joint just makes no sense to me AS A GUITAR PLAYER. Guitar collectors I'm sure have a different point of view...

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I can understand the pleasure of crafting a fine piece of woodworking AS A BUILDER. But I no longer own a Martin and will never buy another dovetail or glued joint wooden guitar again. Given a reset costs $500-700, includes a lengthy wait, and the occasional less than ideal work I've seen done by people with fantastic reputations (typically a low saddle after the repair), a glued joint just makes no sense to me AS A GUITAR PLAYER. Guitar collectors I'm sure have a different point of view...

I'm not quite getting your train of thought here.

Regardless of how illustrious the repairman's reputation may be, when you take your guitar in to get a neck reset, you tell your repairman "I want the string height at the bridge to be no less than .5" (or whatever you perceive as the ideal) at the D string , and I want the action at the 12th fret to be .090" - .070" (or whatever you perceive as the ideal).

If he doesn't fulfil these stipulations you A: don't pay, and B: get him to re-do the job until it is to your satisfaction.

You could encounter exactly the same situation with a bolt on neck , if it were reset and the reset didn't come up to your expectations.

Whether the joint is glued or not is not is irrelevant to you, as a player.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

I'm not quite getting your train of thought here.

Regardless of how illustrious the repairman's reputation may be, when you take your guitar in to get a neck reset, you tell your repairman "I want the string height at the bridge to be no less than .5" (or whatever you perceive as the ideal) at the D string , and I want the action at the 12th fret to be .090" - .070" (or whatever you perceive as the ideal).

If he doesn't fulfil these stipulations you A: don't pay, and B: get him to re-do the job until it is to your satisfaction.

You could encounter exactly the same situation with a bolt on neck , if it were reset and the reset didn't come up to your expectations.

Whether the joint is glued or not is not is irrelevant to you, as a player.

After your guitar has been away for many months and you've paid your bill since it is the lowest stress way of getting your guitar out of the shop, I think your advice is not useful. Would you really anger the person doing the work and give them the opportunity to do it again??? And even the Martin factory will send you home on occasion with a low saddle reset. I've been there trying to get them to re-do their work and it was not easy and the rework was not cosmetically very good (though this was some time ago).

For me, only a bolt-on design makes any practical sense now that it has been long perfected. People making and buying $5K+ guitars are in a different class and I can see how this does not apply to them.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

For me, only a bolt-on design makes any practical sense now that it has been long perfected.

Are you under the impression that the type of neck joint (ie bolt-on versus dovetail) has any bearing on whether the neck will require a reset at some time in the future?

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Would you really anger the person doing the work and give them the opportunity to do it again??? .

Whether the person doing the work gets angry or not would be of absolutely no concern to me.

If I give a specification and the work doesn't meet that specification, it gets redone. Simple as. Anger and tantrums don't enter into the equation.

[John Arnold]

I have no problem at all redoing a dovetail reset gratis if it is called for. It does not happen often, but I would be a liar if I said it has never happened. I will say that it is less likely now than it was when I had only done 50 or so. For most repairmen, resetting is a skill that takes repetition to be really competent.
I would much rather deal with one that has been under-set, rather than over-set.
There is no reason that a second reset (or a fifth, or a tenth) should involve any additional cosmetic issues. Removing a neck that I have glued (particularly recently) is usually much easier. Any reset should be virtually undetectable to the naked eye.
$500 or $600 for a reset seems a bit high to me, but I don't live in an expensive part of the country. Around here, $300 seems to be the average price.......unless you are in Nashville.

[tahoeguitar]

Like John I am occasionally asked to do something over if the customer is not satisfied. Or I do it before the customer sees it... if I catch something that isn't quite right. In either case I don't get mad. It's my job to do it right.

If your luthier (or car mechanic or dentist for that matter) gets angry when asked to uphold their end of the bargain... might want to think about looking for a different one.

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

After your guitar has been away for many months and you've paid your bill since it is the lowest stress way of getting your guitar out of the shop, I think your advice is not useful. Would you really anger the person doing the work and give them the opportunity to do it again??? And even the Martin factory will send you home on occasion with a low saddle reset. I've been there trying to get them to re-do their work and it was not easy and the rework was not cosmetically very good (though this was some time ago).

For me, only a bolt-on design makes any practical sense now that it has been long perfected. People making and buying $5K+ guitars are in a different class and I can see how this does not apply to them.

Your impression that those things that can go wrong with the reset of a dovetail cannot happen with a bolt-on neck is mistaken. The only difference is that it takes about 15 minutes less to take apart the bolt-on, and sometimes a little finish retouch is required with a dovetail. But you seem to be talking about a sloppy fit or a wrong neck angle. There is every bit as much opportunity to get these wrong when resetting a bolt-on neck as a dovetailed one.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

Your impression that those things that can go wrong with the reset of a dovetail cannot happen with a bolt-on neck is mistaken. The only difference is that it takes about 15 minutes less to take apart the bolt-on, and sometimes a little finish retouch is required with a dovetail. But you seem to be talking about a sloppy fit or a wrong neck angle. There is every bit as much opportunity to get these wrong when resetting a bolt-on neck as a dovetailed one.

At one extreme you get your Taylor reset while you wait for roughly the same price as a fret dressing (a Collings can be reset neck in place by some). At the other extreme you wait in an often long queue and (at least here near the Martin factory) pay a pretty princely sum. You guys are talking about aesthetics and how good you are at performing dovetail resets. But for most players of more limited means (which is not me), and access to the local self declared luthier (certainly no shortage of stories of repair problems on the AGF -- though my favorite local "Brothers" is quite excellent), a bolt-on neck is the practical alternative.

I have had two friends come home from pricey resets, one by Martin, and one by a former Martin employee of great esteem in the Lehigh Valley, after 4 month waits, and impressive repair bills (all sorts of other upsell charges) with the saddles just short of as low as they can go.

Would you buy a new car with a carburetor and mechanical points? All the classics were made that way.

[John Arnold]

Would you buy a new car with a carburetor and mechanical points?

All day long. I can (and have) fixed both on the side of the road, in the rain or snow, with ordinary tools. Try that on a modern car with fuel or spark issues.

Call me a Luddite, and I will wear the name proudly.

No matter what the job, you can always find somebody who will do it poorly.

After about 1400 resets, I estimate that less than 10 have been redone. I believe those are pretty good odds.

I have done 'while you wait' dovetail resets.

[Jim.S]

There should be a third category, "Tilt". I suppose tilt comes in the bolt group but it is still a different kettle of fish. There isn't any "while you wait" about it as it is more like while you D.I.Y.

[Halcyon/Tinker]

As per request...


Set the backangle using the mitre gauge on out shopmade edgesander.


With the fretboard pinched to the neck and a bridge proxy in place, run a straightedge along the top to see where it hits the bridge. I leave about 1mm forward at this stage and bring to exact alignment during the final flossing before it gets glued on. I would set it bang on if doing a dovetail.


This fits into the truss rod slot and shows centerline alignment. Close off the bat put not perfect.


Put witness lines so you know it's been sanded totally.


By using shims at either end, you can control how much and in which direction the angle will change. Adding/subtracting shims combined with moving them in and will always let you get it right on.


Align the neck exactly where you wish it to be, and reach through the bolt holes with Special Pencil #1 (chucked in the handdrill and run through the metal drill bit holder, in this case 9/32").


Carefully put a small divot using a brad point where the pencil marks are. As someone noted, using an actual brad point through the block is probably smarter, but I don't have one the right size...


Block with the same (maybe next size up) width hole as the drill bit used for the insert holes, drilled on the drill press so it's square.



Happens to be the right thickness that when buried in the chuck, it extends past the block the depth I want the insert holes, which should be enough to bury the inserts about 1/16 past the face.


Clamp it in place to keep the hole square and more importantly, stopping if from wandering off center by following grain.


Place insert in location, and clamp some scrap drilled with a hole that the insert barely fits through over top.


Fancy.



Yahtzee.


Use the steel inserts on the right, the brass ones suck.


These.

Hope that's helpful.

Oops, had to pull some of the pics for the post to be accepted. You'll figure it out I'm sure.

[redir]

I like that simple little block drill guide. I think I might just have to make one of those. How do you align it? Do you place the brad point drill bit on target then slip the drill jig block over that and then chuck the bit in the drill?

BTW I've only ever used the brass inserts and in about 20 years of doing this, about 40 guitars, have not yet seen a problem with them. One thing I have had a problem with though is putting the inserts directly into end grain. So I like to do the dowel trick now. A 1/2in dowel drilled through the heal so the inserts go into that. I also glue them in. I think maybe one of the missing images has me confused. How do you drill the inserts in? Are you in that one image using a guide block to keep it straight? That's why I have resorted to epoxying them in. I just barely thread them in and then they get glued. Do you use glue at all?

[Halcyon/Tinker]

Keep the block against the chuck, locate the position, let the block drop and clamp it. One day I'll get the trigger style clamps which will make one handed clamping a little easier.

I've tried both kinds of inserts and find the steel ones preferable. Much less likely to strip out the hole, goes into the endgrain fine.

I cut the end off an Allen key and use that on low speed in the hand drill to drive them in. If you feel like you need to in maybe a softer piece of wood, you can carefully back them out and flood the threads with CA.

I usually don't feel a need for glue.

[redir]

Ah ok yeah that makes sense. I need to make one of those jigs. I've just been eyeballing it with a tri-square.