For Those Who Play and Write

Stringin Swing · #1 11-08-2010, 04:45 AM

I've discovered in these few months here in AGF that there are many who are both guitar players and songwriters. I've come across more than one poster who states, in essence, that the guitar, for them, is foremost a means of, or aid to, composing, a conduit for the songs themselves. For you folks out there who write 'em as well as play 'em, which comes first: Are you a guitarist-songwriter or a songwriter-guitarist? Is one role more important than the other? Is one creative outlet a higher priority, demanding more attention, than the other? Which comes more easily, readily -- the playing or the writing? Also, songwriters, do you concentrate on instrumentals or do you write lyrics, too?

While having no special ambition to devote energy to writing my own material, I've found that in just noodling around I have little difficulty in putting together what seems an interesting chord structure, which invites improvisation. I just like the way certain chords are juxtaposed. Thing is, that's about as far as my ability and interest extends, in a personal way. I can appreciate all the components of a well-put-together song -- a standard, you might say: its melody, harmonic foundation, and lyrics, where present. But the pursuit of neither melodies nor lyrics particularly intrigues me. Too, though putting nice chord combinations together extemporaneously can be fun, my focus is improving, both technically and interpretively, as a guitarist and applying my ability to someone else's work.

Lot of questions, I know, but does anyone care to share their experiences in songwriting and the guitar's relationship to it?

brad4d8 · #2 11-08-2010, 06:10 AM

I consider myself a guitar player who occasionally writes songs. These days, I probably only write one or two a year, but 35 years ago when I played regularly I wrote regularly. Unfortunately, because of years of not even playing for fun, most of them have gone out of my memory and the notebook with them in has long since disappeared, as have any tapes made by an old roommate. My biggest hurdle is finishing. I can often come up with a verse and bridge but am stumped for more verses. Well, at least it's not my income source.
Brad

Fliss · #3 11-08-2010, 06:22 AM

I'm at a relatively early point on the learning curve for both, but would say I'm a guitarist who writes songs as well, rather than the other way round, since I do also sing and play other material (covers and traditional songs.) My guitar playing definitely has an impact on my songwriting, as my level of songwriting ability is limited, to a degree, by my level of musicianship and guitar ability.

Additoinal comment (sorry I missed part of the question!) I tend to write songs with lyrics rather than instrumentals, though I've written one instrumental so far - I'm better with words than music!

Fliss

ewalling · #4 11-08-2010, 06:28 AM

My focus is exclusively on playing some of the great instrumental music already out there, and on improving my ability to do so. I've never had, and doubt I ever will have, the urge to "write" music myself.

rmyAddison · #5 11-08-2010, 07:21 AM

I've played for 46 years, mostly covers in a band until 1999. I moved, lost the band, and started writing (which I had always wanted to, as well as be more of a folk oriented "storyteller"). I'm into getting my "stuff" down (recorded, home studio changes in progress) more than performing out anymore, but I can do an evening of my songs and get booked and paid when the urge strikes, that's a good feeling.

I love playing the guitar, and have tried to develop a hybrid style of flatpicking off of walking chords, not bluegrass but similar. My songs mostly come out of practices where I force myself to find new voicings and transition shords. I hear something I like, I build around it, and I absolutley try to tell a story. The music is definitely guitar oriented, and would be difficult for me to transpose to another instrument and maintain the "voicings".

Two things have really helped me, recording my sessions and taking workshops. Recording is invaluable, every note has to count, too many folks thing because you're holding a chord position that any string you hit (or miss) is OK, that's the difference between amateur and good. Same with vocals, work on your weaknesses, I do not have a great voice but I try to get the most out of it I can, and that includes proper breathing and phrasing.

Folks who post a song a week are kidding themselves, there are no Dylans or Beatles (prolific songwriters) on this forum, and taking workshops can really help break us out of bad habits and learn to think differently. I have been amazed how much I considered correct was "not so much" when analyzed by industry pros, and how they can make suggestions about songs during workshops that everyone can agree instantly makes those songs stronger and better. IMHO anybody who is serious about writing songs should take pro level workshops, you will be surprised as I was how much you don't know, leave your ego at the door and learn............

Back to point I try to be a songwriter who loves playing acoustic guitar. Since I never write the lyrics first I would have to give a slight edge to the guitar in the process.

NoPicks · #6 11-08-2010, 07:46 AM

which comes first: Are you a guitarist-songwriter or a songwriter-guitarist?

Actually, my primary instrument is electric bass and guitar is a secondary (albeit very useful) instrument, but for your purposes I would say songwriter-guitarist

Is one role more important than the other?

IMHO yes. The act of writing songs is usually more important to me than the specific instrument(s) I use to build the melody and harmonic structure. That said, guitar is often the most useful single instrument I use to write with because it can switch roles with relative ease - bass line to melody line to chordal harmony, for example. Filling each of those roles with separate instruments would make it absolutely necessary to start multitrack recording as part of the creative process - fun at times, it's true, but always Very time consuming. With a guitar, I can jump back and forth between parts as necessary and without any other setup besides 'adjusting my attitude' (so to speak) to fit the role I'm working on at the moment.

Is one creative outlet a higher priority, demanding more attention, than the other?

I normally put the highest priority on lyrics, since my personal preference is to have the lyrics tell a good story, in a way that doesn't lapse into the usual cliché crapola (moon, june, tune, etc.) more than absolutely neccessary. No easy trick, lemme tell ya'

Which comes more easily, readily -- the playing or the writing?

Playing, by a mile. Once you know what you want to accomplish, the rest is just a matter of how. That's not to say that some of the parts I come up with don't take some serious time and effort to achieve, and there have been a few times I've written things in my head that proved impossible (or at least unreasonably difficult) to perform - especially when I've rough-drafted an overly dense and wordy set of lyrics that absolutely must be delivered perfectly or the entire thing turns into a trainwreck the minute I mess up a word, or even just the phrasing. Still, without a target to shoot at, you're just wasting ammo by spraying bullets around at random....

do you concentrate on instrumentals or do you write lyrics, too?

When I first started writing seriously, many moons ago, the chords usually came first, melody line second, and the lyrics were often an afterthought at best. Thirty some years later, I usually find myself spending the bulk of the time and effort on lyrics, then crafting the chords and melody to suit

Quote:

the pursuit of neither melodies nor lyrics particularly intrigues me. Too, though putting nice chord combinations together extemporaneously can be fun, my focus is improving, both technically and interpretively, as a guitarist and applying my ability to someone else's work

There's plenty of room out there for that approach, and when it's done well it can easily surpass the original
Just one example:

The Original
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEWXY...layer_embedded

The Definitive Version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC02w...eature=related

LiveMusic · #7 11-08-2010, 07:49 AM

For the past ten years, I am a songwriter first, guitar player second. I used to sometimes write a lyric first but for the past few years, it almost always begins with a guitar lick or chord progression... the guitar inspires the song. I also write on piano some but not much.

I often get inspired by listening to music. I'll hear something I like and morph off of that after I figure out what the player is doing. It never ends up being very close to what I started out with, it's just a catalyst.

I also get inspired just noodling around. Especially when tuned to a different tuning. In fact, after learning a new tuning, I will often get several songs out of that alone.

I read every songwriting book I could get my hands on.

I do not write any instrumental music. I have written over 400 complete songs in nine years. The past two months have been as prolific as I have ever been. I don't know how many I have written but I'd say maybe 20 in the past two months. Part of the reason for that is a new woman. Haha, not kidding. And I consider many of these songs among my finest work. I have definitely been on a roll.

JohnZ · #8 11-08-2010, 08:07 AM

In retrospect over the last 40 years, I’ve been a lyricist who supported the habit and a love of performing and guitar playing by cranking covers for cash. It’s all good though. My first published material was around 1970 when my first wife’s ex and I were staff writing (mostly commercials) for Screen Gems…..not the greatest experience but came away with a nice set of tools.

I’m not sure how to answer your questions for there are many paths a song can take in its formation. One thing that is consistent is a spine in the song’s formation and the circular process of ‘define and refine’ AFTER you’ve put a song together.

Don’t give up on melodies, the notes are in those chords you’re playing around with.

$ongWriter · #9 11-08-2010, 08:56 AM

I am a songwriter who normally writes with a guitar sitting in my lap. I'm not a great guitar player. But, meeting alot of songwriters from Nashville who make a living writing...most of them are not what people would consider GREAT guitar players. And, I have a few songs with guitar licks in them that if I could have played what I wanted to play, I never would have stumbled across the lick I used. I took lessons for awhile but just couldn't practice enough because when I pick up the guitar I want to write a song. Blessing and a curse!...

ewalling · #10 11-08-2010, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnZ

In retrospect over the last 40 years, I’ve been a lyricist who supported the habit and a love of performing and guitar playing by cranking covers for cash.

Well, you're in good company - John Williams and Andres Segovia, to name just two. They crank(ed) covers for cash, too!

Misifus · #11 11-08-2010, 09:57 AM

Since the days of the great folk scare, I've been playing, playing mostly to accompany my singing. However, for the last decade, or so, I've been playing more for the instrument itself. I have put together some original instrumentals and instrumental arrangements of old tunes. In addition, I have been writing songs for about the last six years, or so. Enough, in fact, that I've been able to cut a CD of mostly original music.

-Raf

BuckMahoney · #12 11-08-2010, 10:46 AM

I am a guitarist songwriter.Most days i just play and practice the songs I've already written,occasionally making some changes or even the singing style.
I would say the guitar playing takes priority over songwriting as i noodle away on my guitar most days.For me the playing takes up most my time,that is the way i write songs.When I'm playing for fun I'll come across a chord progression and something sparks and i have to put down lyrics for the song.That is how most of my songs are born.I've tried writing the song first and then putting the guitar parts into it but that doesn't work out too well with me.I suppose it's because I've been a guitarist longer than a songwriter.
Sometimes i just want to play instrumentals and spend more time on that than songwriting with lyrics.I do make up instrumentals all the time,it's just something i love to do,Create

shortymack · #13 11-08-2010, 11:02 AM

[QUOTE=rmyAddison;2400909]Folks who post a song a week are kidding themselves, there are no Dylans or Beatles (prolific songwriters) on this forum
[QUOTE]

Why take a jab at others creativeness? Whats a 'good' song to you is a bad one to someone else. Just like tone, songs are subjective, they either speak to you or they dont.

Wolf · #14 11-08-2010, 11:26 AM

I write on guitar, keyboard and sequencer. And pen and paper. But guitar is the instrument i can play the best.

$ongWriter · #15 11-08-2010, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmyAddison

I've played for 46 years, mostly covers in a band until 1999. I moved, lost the band, and started writing (which I had always wanted to, as well as be more of a folk oriented "storyteller"). I'm into getting my "stuff" down (recorded, home studio changes in progress) more than performing out anymore, but I can do an evening of my songs and get booked and paid when the urge strikes, that's a good feeling.

I love playing the guitar, and have tried to develop a hybrid style of flatpicking off of walking chords, not bluegrass but similar. My songs mostly come out of practices where I force myself to find new voicings and transition shords. I hear something I like, I build around it, and I absolutley try to tell a story. The music is definitely guitar oriented, and would be difficult for me to transpose to another instrument and maintain the "voicings".

Two things have really helped me, recording my sessions and taking workshops. Recording is invaluable, every note has to count, too many folks thing because you're holding a chord position that any string you hit (or miss) is OK, that's the difference between amateur and good. Same with vocals, work on your weaknesses, I do not have a great voice but I try to get the most out of it I can, and that includes proper breathing and phrasing.

Folks who post a song a week are kidding themselves, there are no Dylans or Beatles (prolific songwriters) on this forum, and taking workshops can really help break us out of bad habits and learn to think differently. I have been amazed how much I considered correct was "not so much" when analyzed by industry pros, and how they can make suggestions about songs during workshops that everyone can agree instantly makes those songs stronger and better. IMHO anybody who is serious about writing songs should take pro level workshops, you will be surprised as I was how much you don't know, leave your ego at the door and learn............

Back to point I try to be a songwriter who loves playing acoustic guitar. Since I never write the lyrics first I would have to give a slight edge to the guitar in the process.

What does being prolific have to do with being Bob Dylan or the Beatles. The Beatles and Bob Dylan to me are in the same boat as Hank Williams Sr. They had the talent, and....they came along at the perfect time. I think today if Dylan came along he just might get missed. And by saying that I'm not saying he's not a great if not the greatest songwriter....but, what he writes is just not "totally" my thang. And, don't get me wrong...he's written some great songs. Being prolific as far as songwriting means writing everyday. And trust me...there are songwriters in Nashville who write everyday...they are prolific..even more prolific than Dylan and the Beatles...they treat it just like a job because to be a successful songwriter in country music you pretty much gotta write all the time....that doesn't mean their songs are better than the Beatles...but, hey...the Beatles didn't hit home runs with every song...ever heard Why Don't We Do It In The Road....