AEA N22 re close miking acoustics in untreated rooms

[Doug Young]

So, to get back to the OP's question, I realized I've not tried the N22's in an untreated room, only in my studio, so it was worth a quick try. Here's a 2 recordings of a pair of N22s in a spare bedroom that's empty except for a murphy bed. Hardwood floors, drywall, pretty lively, 11x12, I think. Oh, and my wife had the TV on in the other room. Recorded to a Zoom H6.

First up, about 15 inches away. Not as thin as I recalled, and the room doesn't sound as terrible as you might think - not as bad as my garage before it was converted. But you can certainly hear the room:



Now, same setup, but I moved the mics to about 3 inches from the guitar. Definitely a pretty tight setup, no room to move around!



And just for fun, here's a very quick EQ/reverb mix of the 3-inch take, mostly just adding a bit of high end, cutting a bit of low mids, and adding just a tiny touch of reverb.



I have no idea if this is useful to the OP, since we haven't heard any examples there, but this at least demos a typical home situation - TV on, cat running around in the room :-), lousy acoustics, and an attempt to at least get a passable sound thru close-micing.

Note: you can download these to avoid Soundcloud's streaming/mangling, if you want.

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I don't know, if my guitar sounded like that in person, I'd probably stop playing... :-) Or move to a different room, at least.

This is all getting philosophical - kind of a "what's the sound of one hand clapping" thing, or maybe more like "what's a guitar sound like when it's not in a room?". When I record, I'm looking to capture something that sounds "good", and ideally that is pretty similar to what I hear when I play, at least when I'm in a decent room.

I wasn't trying to say that your guitar sounded bad your recordings always sound great. For me there is the sound I hear when playing in a nice sounding room which is really off axis as we obviously can't hear ourselves from the listeners perspective unless we record it. There is also the "recorded" sound which I like as well but I don't always hear it as one in the same. I guess it depends what you're going for.

Obviously Adrian Legg isn't always trying to faithfully capture the sound of an acoustic as is. To me a pretty iconic rock acoustic guitar tone is Stephen Stills. It's a "studio" sound that doesn't really happen in the same way without the obvious compression, light gauge strings, close mic'ing and open tuning...

https://youtu.be/ACBQbkYG_tw

Anyway, didn't mean to go off topic.

[Doug Young]

Sure, I understand. A recording isn't "real". It just gets philosophical, because it's pretty impossible to define real. Is it the sound of your guitar in the bedroom, the bathroom, the studio, outdoors? The sound you hear when you play, or the sound out front? I think Adrian Legg's sound is easier - he plays an electric, and the sound that comes out of the wire at the end of all his effects is what it is :-)

I think of recording as being a bit like photography. A picture of a person isn't a person, it's a flat sheet of paper that conveys something that is similar to the person. And it can show the person at their best or their worst. You can have huge differences in how someone looks in a photograph based on lighting (analogous to room acoustics), camera lens, quality and settings (like mics, and recording technique) and so on. A good photographer uses the options, lighting, framing, lens, and so on to create the artistic effect they want. It isn't reality, but then what is? Does the model really look like they do under soft flattering light after makeup, or do they really look like the person without makeup under harsh fluorescent light? Or neither? Same thing with recording.

But I think (tho I'm guessing) the OP is asking for help in overcoming obstacles to home recording to get a sound that is "good". It'd be nice to know what that means to him, because it might be totally different than what I'm assuming, at least.

Which brings up one other suggestion. A very important step in recording is to find a reference. It's one thing to say "I want a good sound", and anther to say "I want to get the sound Tony Rice got on <some specific track>". It conveys to others what you want, and gives you something to compare to, so you can tell if you're making progress. I often spend a lot of time with reference recordings when I start on a new recording project, it just helps me dial in mic placement, guitar choice, fine-tune my ears, and set my expectations.

Looks like I didn't succeed in getting back to the specific question :-)

[Eclectic Guitar]

Thanks very much Doug for the N-22 3"/15" recording samples.

-It does seem, (from what I can hear) that the AEA N22 may indeed be a good direction for recording in relatively acoustically untreated environments.

*The thing is, -as you do, -it would most probably be best to have two.

-The DPA 4099 is said to be the best one found by many for close miking acoustic guitars. -they're at least $250.00 less expensive than the AEA N22.

-The N22 having the advantage though of also supposedly being good for vocals.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

BTW, since everyone keeps bringing up acoustic treatment, here's a little "before and after" I did when I built my studio. I recorded a short ditty with one mic, 18 inches away, before I did anything, and then again, in the same spot when I was nearly done adding treatment. The After's not a great recording by any means, but I was just trying to hear the impact of the room treatment, which should be pretty obvious. From here, mic placement and so on can dial in a decent sound.

Before Treatment

After Treatment

Wow, I've never heard such a drastic comparison for room treatment. What kind of room was this?

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Eclectic Guitar

Thanks very much Doug for the N-22 3"/15" recording samples.

-It does seem, (from what I can hear) that the AEA N22 may indeed be a good direction for recording in relatively acoustically untreated environments.

*The thing is, -as you do, -it would most probably be best to have two.

-The DPA 4099 is said to be the best one found by many for close miking acoustic guitars. -they're at least $250.00 less expensive than the AEA N22.

-The N22 having the advantage though of also supposedly being good for vocals.

It all depends on what you want to hear in your recordings, but:

You might want to consider the difference in what a guitar sounds like close mic'd versus given some space/distance for the sound coming from its various locations to blend together. I'd much prefer to record my guitar from a distance of 18" to 30" than close mic'd. I realize you have the concern/issue of a relatively untreated space, but how bad is it? I think quite a number of successful home recordings have been done without extremely close micing and without excessive cost of treatment.

Also, a single mic for guitar and voice may be quite a compromise for one or the other.

I also noticed you had some posts regarding nylon string guitars. If that is what you are recording you may want to consider their relatively limited high frequency content; might a sdc be better suited than a ribbon mic?

[Cochese]

Very true. My Royer is pretty dark on my Taylor's, on a nylon it would not be my choice at all. The OP might consider that if you're recording in a DAW it should be easy enough to notch out a specific low end frequency and get a better all around mic. Ribbon mics tend to sound more like what we actually hear and most recordings use condenser mic's that tend to hype high end that is not naturally there. The nice thing about a ribbon mic is that they respond really well to EQ.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Wow, I've never heard such a drastic comparison for room treatment. What kind of room was this?

Probably a worst case :-) My garage, concrete floor, drywall walls. Now my studio, with tons of treatment.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Eclectic Guitar

DPA 4099 is said to be the best one found by many for close miking acoustic guitars. -they're at least $250.00 less expensive than the AEA N22.

The 4099 is a fine mic for what it is, but it's meant for live use. You're paying a premium for the mounting and overall design, and have very limited placement flexibility. You also get a bit of handling noise - the mic, even tho it's on a shock mount, is attached to your guitar, and you'd be surprised how much noise - rustling of the guitar against your shirt, etc, it can pickup. Fine for live, maybe an issue for recording. In any case, you can get an equivalent mic for less, mount it on a stand, and have more flexibility to dial in a good sound. Plus, I always vote for 2 mics.

[Eclectic Guitar]

Currently I'm working on a song where I will be renting a Gibson J-45 for the final guitar track -so I'm much in the steel string world for a little while.
(-I may also end up renting some mics so as to "test the waters".)

-So what mic (spaced pair of mics) would be a smart choice for recording said J45 ?

I was thinking Sure SM 81s, but as you know there are recording environment considerations to factor in.

There's a very limited menu of mics that can be rented at Long & McQudes Music, this may factor into it. So I haven"t ruled out a possible mic purchase in lue of such lack of available rentals mic types.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Eclectic Guitar

Currently I'm working on a song where I will be renting a Gibson J-45 for the final guitar track -so I'm much in the steel string world for a little while.
(-I may also end up renting some mics so as to "test the waters".)

-So what mic (spaced pair of mics) would be a smart choice for recording said J45 ?

I was thinking Sure SM 81s, but as you know there are recording environment considerations to factor in.

There's a very limited menu of mics that can be rented at Long & McQudes Music, this may factor into it. So I haven"t ruled out a possible mic purchase in lue of such lack of available rentals mic types.

How much does a mic rental cost? Given that you don't have a good space to record in, have you considered just going to a studio to record? Instead of spending money renting a mic, rent a studio (and an engineer). If your space is so poor, even a low-end studio would be a big improvement. I don't see how a short term mic rental will lead to a decent recording - there's a learning curve that plays a big role in getting good recordings and that takes time.

[MikeBmusic]

Doug is correct - there is a learning curve involved with recording - and renting mics means your time for experimentation will be limited. If you are going to be doing more recording after this current round, still don't understand why you would not want to put a few dollars into (portable) acoustic treatment in your recording space.

[Eclectic Guitar]

-There's periodical half off sales for rentals at my local music store.

-It's then that I usually rent stuff, -for the entire month.

I will do what I reasonably can do in this rented bachelor apart., -keeping in mind that I can't know for sure how long I'll be there.

I read in places that Sure SM 81s & CAD E100S mics are actually recommended for untreated rooms.

The CAD e100s are said to be quite good for voice as well as acoustic guitar, -but I'm fast coming to the realization as to the unlikelihood that the same mic would do for my acoustic guitar as well as voice tracks.

I just need to determine what mic would be "best" for this room situation -as well as bring out the better aspects of the Gibson J-45 that I'm figuring to be the guitar model within my reach that's most appropriate for the tune I'm currently working on.

I've decided to acquire gear -as I need -per project.

-As I do have some other material & perspective projects (of my own) similar to the sort of song I'm working on now, any such new gear will likely be useful enough in the future.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Eclectic Guitar

...[snip]...I'm fast coming to the realization as to the unlikelihood that the same mic would do for my acoustic guitar as well as voice tracks.

I just need to determine what mic would be "best" for this room situation -as well as bring out the better aspects of the Gibson J-45 that I'm figuring to be the guitar model within my reach that's most appropriate for the tune I'm currently working on]...[snip]...

Have you looked into microphones with interchangeable capsules? You could get a large diameter capsule for voice, and for the guitar you might want to try both omni and cardioid small diameter capsules. If you find your room acoustics force you to do very close micing the omni might be best (no proximity effect). If you find your room allows 12" or more micing distance you might find the cardioid capsule works best. If in the future your recording space has good acoustics you might like to try the omni at a greater distance.

If this sounds like an alternative worth considering, look at a 3 Zigma 1x3 toolbox. It contains a head amp, 1 large diameter capsule, and 2 small diameter capsules. You can pick between any of 4 different large diameter capsules. Proaudiotoys.com has a 15% sale on 3 Zigma, or you could contact Larry Villella (the owner of 3 Zigma) directly. You could get this set new for under $1K.

[otavio]

I have one and use in untreated enviroment.
I love this mic, how it smooth things.