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Old 05-12-2016, 10:50 AM
Eclectic Guitar Eclectic Guitar is offline
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Default AEA N22 re close miking acoustics in untreated rooms

-Around the 1 K (American $) price point, there may indeed be an relatively new evolutionary step in the AEA N22 ribbon microphone -for close miking acoustics -and for singer/songwriters in untreated rooms.)

-In my quest in determining which way to best record vox & acoustic guitar in such an "acoustically untreated room", I've been bouncing around from considering various of the better dynamic-cardioids, -to some hyper-cardioid type LDC, & other SDC spaced pair/close miking directions.

However reading what AEA has to say about their N22 ribbon mic certainly convinces me that much of what I'm looking for in the way of a mic solution is the very thing they have designed & tried for in the N22.

It's more than I originally wanted to go with the price, -but if it truly covers my vocal tracking needs as well as records acoustic guitar adequately -it may prove less expensive than the likely eventual purchase of two mics otherwise.

This "modern" mic -may just be the thing I need.

Has anyone had any experience recording vocals & guitar with this AEA N22 in an acoustically untreated room ?
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Old 05-12-2016, 12:19 PM
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I haven't used that ribbon mic, so I can't give you a response to your specific question. However, since you are considering close micing to minimize your room's effect you will have to deal with significant proximity effect. Along those lines, have you considered an omni condenser mic? There is no proximity effect with a true pressure mic. One option could be 3 Zigma CHI series mics. They offer a head amp with interchangeable capsules (various sdc including omni, and various 'colored' large diameter capsules that could work for voice). A while ago proaudiotoys had some new old stock, and I was able to pick up a pair of omnis.
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Old 05-12-2016, 01:22 PM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
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Or ... you could consider spending $600 on a mic (or pair) and about $400 on acoustic treatment, which would give you enough to buy 5 of these or if you made them yourself, 8-10 2'x4'x4" panels. Even 2-3 panels, arranged correctly, would vastly improve the recorded sound in an otherwise-untreated room and allow standard miking methods.
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Old 05-12-2016, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclectic Guitar View Post
Has anyone had any experience recording vocals & guitar with this AEA N22 in an acoustically untreated room ?
I have a pair of N22's - I suspect you've checked them out because I mentioned them in another thread? If you watch the videos of Wes talking about what they are shooting for, you get the story. Basically, the mics just have an extreme low-end rolloff, so that to get any bass response, you *have* to close mic. Literally 2-3 inches from the guitar. I don't do vocals, so I have no idea about that. The mics sound very nice when used up close (real close). From any distance, they sound thin.

Are they a cure for bad acoustics? No, absolutely not. Wes explains it all in the video - home recordists typically don't have 1st class room acoustics. We haven't hired an acoustician and spent a few hundred grand on tuning the room. He's trying to make a mic that works for project studios or hobby studios. But he can't cure really bad acoustics. The mic will pick up less of the room just because it lets you *really* close mic, so that *may* help, but it can only go so far. (You could do the same thing with any omni mic, BTW). You need at least passable acoustics - that's the key to a good recording, far more important than any other factor (as Joseph Hanna just elaborated on in the other thread). I have a dedicated space, with quite a lot of acoustic treatment - far from pro-quality, but "OK" for someone's home-built garage studio. That's the only place I've tried the N22s, and they work fine in there. But so do other mics I have - the jury's still out on how much I'll use the N22s, they're a nice tool to have, maybe I'll be able to leverage them for something. I bought them on a whim, being a bit enamored with ribbon mics at the moment. I almost sent them back, they're sort of a one-trick pony - great for very close micing. But in the end, it's nice to have options and I hung onto them.

Bottom line, if you have a bad-sounding room, and need to choose between $2K in mics or $2K in room treatment, go with the room treatment.

Last edited by Doug Young; 05-12-2016 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 05-13-2016, 06:09 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Given Doug's comments it seems like it would be really difficult to maintain that optimum close distance?

I have a hard enough time with actually playing without the additional concentration of maintaining a 2" distance for ultra-close micing.
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Old 05-13-2016, 07:22 AM
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I will add a +1,+1 to both Doug's and Mike's comments.
It has always intrigued me that addressing room acoustics is not somehow as common, basic, and automatically assumed to be part of the process of attempting to make good home recordings, as learning basic chord fingering is in attempting to learn to play guitar well ??????????

Now of course if someone is simply recording for archive only, quick song idea capture, or practice reference, things where just getting an intelligible replication is the goal. Then the room acoustics do not really mater and neither does the quality of the recorder beyond intelligibility .

But for any recording where the quality is important, then not addressing room acoustics (even with only movable panel "gobo" type minimal solutions) seems like spending time effort and money on trying to find just the right type of bandage to place over a cancer lesion.

And in that vain of thought if someone does not want to DYI, here is an additional source added to the link Mike offered ( at aprox. the same price point) This is the company I purchased from and highly recommend, I was able to talk to them directly about my specific room and situation.

http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/...coustic-panel/
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Last edited by KevWind; 05-13-2016 at 07:51 AM.
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Old 05-14-2016, 01:57 PM
Cochese Cochese is offline
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An inexpensive way to improve acoustics is to have an acoustic sound blanket. They are not expensive. I have some plywood I've constructed as a baffle and drape the blanket over it and put the baffle behind the mic to mask unwanted reflections. A simple Fender type rectangular guitar case opened on end with a blanket works too.

I have a Royer 121 Ribbon and do use it on acoustic at times but usually mixed with a condenser. Don't rule out mixing pickup signal with mic's as that can be blended in for some additional attack.

It depends what your going for and in recording for every rule someone has probably broken that rule and made it work.

Personally I think recording by yourself with multiple mics is a big drag. I'll do 2 but 3 got to be to much work without an assistant.
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Old 05-14-2016, 05:28 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese View Post
An inexpensive way to improve acoustics is to have an acoustic sound blanket. They are not expensive. I have some plywood I've constructed as a baffle and drape the blanket over it and put the baffle behind the mic to mask unwanted reflections. A simple Fender type rectangular guitar case opened on end with a blanket works too.
I absolutely agree. All the solutions you mentioned may work magic. But then again it indeed may be sonic madness.

You really, first and foremost, have to know what the problems are. Tossing blankets over plywood may in reality be the absolute correct solution. Then again without knowing what the aliment is, the diagnosis remains a total crap shoot.
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Old 05-14-2016, 06:39 PM
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BTW, since everyone keeps bringing up acoustic treatment, here's a little "before and after" I did when I built my studio. I recorded a short ditty with one mic, 18 inches away, before I did anything, and then again, in the same spot when I was nearly done adding treatment. The After's not a great recording by any means, but I was just trying to hear the impact of the room treatment, which should be pretty obvious. From here, mic placement and so on can dial in a decent sound.

Before Treatment

After Treatment

Also check out Fran Guidry's Home Brewed Music blog. He has several demos, including one that demos the benefits of a simple 2-panel absorber.

Last edited by Doug Young; 05-14-2016 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 05-14-2016, 06:55 PM
RayCJ RayCJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
BTW, since everyone keeps bringing up acoustic treatment, here's a little "before and after" I did when I built my studio. I recorded a short ditty with one mic, 18 inches away, before I did anything, and then again, in the same spot when I was nearly done adding treatment. Th

After Treatment

Also check out Fran Guidry's Home Brewed Music blog. He has several demos, including one that demos the benefits of a simple 2-panel absorber.
Hey, Doug... Your "After" link is not working...

Ray
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Old 05-14-2016, 07:12 PM
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Hey, Doug... Your "After" link is not working...

Ray
Oops. Well at least you got to hear the really horrid track :-) Should be fixed now.
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Old 05-14-2016, 07:26 PM
RayCJ RayCJ is offline
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Yes, it works now and yes, there was a big difference/improvement.

Thanks...


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Old 05-14-2016, 09:27 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
BTW, since everyone keeps bringing up acoustic treatment, here's a little "before and after" I did when I built my studio. I recorded a short ditty with one mic, 18 inches away, before I did anything, and then again, in the same spot when I was nearly done adding treatment. The After's not a great recording by any means, but I was just trying to hear the impact of the room treatment, which should be pretty obvious. From here, mic placement and so on can dial in a decent sound.

Before Treatment

After Treatment

Also check out Fran Guidry's Home Brewed Music blog. He has several demos, including one that demos the benefits of a simple 2-panel absorber.
Very nice, Doug.

We hear the "treat the room" mantra so often that it's refreshing to actually hear it demonstrated so plainly. All the early reflections and room artifacts are almost totally eliminated.

In this case "Hearing is believing".
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Old 05-15-2016, 07:50 AM
Cochese Cochese is offline
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Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna View Post
I absolutely agree. All the solutions you mentioned may work magic. But then again it indeed may be sonic madness.

You really, first and foremost, have to know what the problems are. Tossing blankets over plywood may in reality be the absolute correct solution. Then again without knowing what the aliment is, the diagnosis remains a total crap shoot.
Not really. When recording acoustic in bigger studios they will sometimes put you in the "room" and sometimes in a vocal booth. A vocal booth is designed to be pretty "dead" with no reflections as that makes it easy to add effects but also allows for a lot of mic gain without picking up a ton of room noise. It's a simple principal. In really big pro studios that are well designed you're talking really big $ for acoustics. Floating floors treated ceilings. I recorded at the old "Right Track" studios in NYC and they can record symphonic orchestras there. A really big room with movable walls and ceilings. A number of small booths off the main room. For electric guitar they have an "igloo" type baffle or just put the amps Ina smaller room depending on how many pieces are being recorded. At the little project studio I record at a great deal he always records acoustic in the vocal booth. Not that my solution will do the exact same thing but will get you in the ballpark and get rid of a lot of room noise.

You can buy acoustics panels and bass traps and they will help but it won't turn your bedroom in to a multimillion dollar facility. I've recorded in both. As long as you understand the recording process you can get decent results by following some basic principals.

Before you start you should decided "what type" of acoustic tone you want. There is the true sound of your instrument as captured by a given microphone and there is "recorded" acoustic tone which is really hyped conceptualized tone.

I always enjoy Doug's recordings but to me they are "recorded" tones as his example illustrates. The untreated room sounds more like a guitar would in a room as there is room sound and some hash to the sound. The treated example is more conceptualized. Acoustic guitars don't "really sound like that in most instances. If you listen to Andy McKee, Don Ross and Adrian Legg those tones are very studio and in your face with big low end. Recorded acoustic tone.
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Old 05-15-2016, 01:19 PM
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NThe untreated room sounds more like a guitar would in a room as there is room sound and some hash to the sound. The treated example is more conceptualized. .
I don't know, if my guitar sounded like that in person, I'd probably stop playing... :-) Or move to a different room, at least.

This is all getting philosophical - kind of a "what's the sound of one hand clapping" thing, or maybe more like "what's a guitar sound like when it's not in a room?". When I record, I'm looking to capture something that sounds "good", and ideally that is pretty similar to what I hear when I play, at least when I'm in a decent room.
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