Getting a pickup+having it installed vs getting a microphone (For gigs and whatnot)

[David-NJ]

Originally Posted by theflink

Hello again guys.


Recently purchased a guitar and when I bought it, I knew that I would have to get a pickup and have it installed or get a microphone specifically for the guitar.
I guess I'll also have to get a preamp at some point... Buying a guitar without a pickup might not have been the greatest idea i've ever had but this guitar has some serious mojo

In your experience, what produces the best live sound? having a microphone in front of the soundhole/12th fret, or getting a good pickup installed and using that instead. I (think I) know that you need to get a "special" microphone as a regular microphone for singing isn't quite fit for guitar.

I'm going to start playing gigs in bars at some point, and the pickup solution is probably the easiest, but sound is more important to me right now. I'll probably end up getting a pickup at some point anyway as I'll probably wanna try busking in some of the surrounding cities too (I might actually just get a new guitar for that specific purpose if the microphone is indeed the better solution for a bar environment.. I realize a microphone in the streets with wind coming from all sides and people walking by closely might not be the best idea, but I really have no clue, since I've never tried it before )

What would the best option be soundwise, and what would be easiest. What do you do? What costs the most?

Thanks in advance, once again! Nicest community on this side of the universe

/Marc

A really good mic will almost always give you the best sound, but you really can't move around much. Actually you kind of can: traditional bluegrass groups have always used "distance from the mic" as a simple way of mixing. Whoever's doing a solo moves up toward the mic, and the others back away. It's actually a very graceful little minuet.

I still haven't found a perfect system, but without carrying a lot of external gear the best practical in-guitar setup that I've found is a Baggs Anthem. Still, for a really fine guitar I wouldn't even ream out the endpin hole -- I don't think the Anthem system will work with one of those endpin 1/8" jack fittings. Doesn't really bother me to drill a tiny hole for the UST cable, but obviously the fewer mods the better.

[duluthdan]

Originally Posted by theflink

Looks nice but you can't trust them to tell you the truth Do you have any experience with it?

Yes, as a matter of fact. Just sold a Gibson Southern Jumbo used mostly for barn jams, and saloons, sounded superb through all the house PAs i've played thru, my Fishman 220 Solo Amp and my Fender Acoustisonic amp. Sounded best when you could convince the sound guy to set bass, mids, and trebles all flat or at zero, with just a little reverb. Sold the SJ to help finance the Legend, and thinking about installing the Trance in there now.

[Toby Walker]

Originally Posted by theflink

Do you have any pickups you'd recommend. I'm sure you have loads of experience? ;-)

Hi Marc,

I've had some great results with K&K and Fishman Matrix.

[Marshall]

Originally Posted by theflink

Hello again guys.


... Buying a guitar without a pickup might not have been the greatest idea i've ever had but this guitar has some serious mojo

. . . , I'm going to start playing gigs in bars at some point, and the pickup solution is probably the easiest, but sound is more important to me right now. . . . ,

I think buying a guitar without a pickup is great, because you get to chose the pickup instead of settling for somebody elses mediocre choice.

Playing in bars rules out mics. Plus that will teach you quickly to accept the sound you get from some inept sound guy. You want simple and quick. But as good as you can get with that limitation

Go to dougyoungguitar.com and hear Doug's clips of different pickups and decide for yourself what sound will suit your needs acceptably.

[Marshall]

Originally Posted by Toby Walker

Hi Marc,

I've had some great results with K&K and Fishman Matrix.

Toby is the man. K&Ks are a lot of people's recommendation. They are good, but not perfect. (nothing is). But their install is difficult and permanent, being superglued to the bridge plate.

I've had good success and like Schatten HFNs. The install is much easier, and reversible, and the results are very similar to the K&K.

Though the output of the Schatten is probably lower than the K&K, so preamp is more critical.

[HerpDerp]

Okay, question!

For mainly playing on a stage what pickups are recommended (Collings OM)?

I was looking at two of the most popular choices: K&K Trinity or Baggs Anthem, but definitely open to other options.

Advice would be greatly appreciated!

[lroyb]

Originally Posted by Marshall

Toby is the man. K&Ks are a lot of people's recommendation. They are good, but not perfect. (nothing is). But their install is difficult and permanent, being superglued to the bridge plate

I don't think K&K's are that permanent or difficult to install.

I bought a Martin HD28 on Monday installed a K&K on Tuesday (30 minute install) and gigged with it on Wednesday. I used my LR Baggs Para DI and had a Shure 57 to help with the blend. The sound was fantastic for the room I played (which is mostly a listening room).

I have 2 other Martins with Fishman F1 Aura pickups which are easier to set up for a variety of venues and there is no need for DI's or extra mics. The negatives for the F1 is they eat 9 volt batteries like crazy and you can't get them installed (at least I know of no one who can).

[Mr Fixit eh]

Originally Posted by Marshall

Toby is the man. K&Ks are a lot of people's recommendation. They are good, but not perfect. (nothing is). But their install is difficult and permanent, being superglued to the bridge plate.

I've had good success and like Schatten HFNs. The install is much easier, and reversible, and the results are very similar to the K&K.

Though the output of the Schatten is probably lower than the K&K, so preamp is more critical.

I have to respectfully disagree - I've installed several KK pups myself, and it couldn't have been easier, if you have a basic level of manual dexterity and are not terrified by an electric drill. Even the superglue installation is removable, because they provide a gel that is more flexible than standard superglue. KK also offers the option of installing the pups by way of double-sided tape.

I haven't personally tried the Schatten, but I have no doubt that it also provides a good sound.

Steve

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Marshall

Toby is the man. K&Ks are a lot of people's recommendation. They are good, but not perfect. (nothing is). But their install is difficult and permanent, being superglued to the bridge plate.

Hi Marshall...
They are glued to the bridge plate, and my luthier (he built my last guitar) assured me that if he can remove a bridge, and reinstall it on my best guitar and the repair is not visible, he can remove a K&K in under 5 minutes with a razor blade and it will not damage the bridge plate.

K&K Pure Mini is still one of the best pickups for the money, and when used as ½ of a dual source with an internal (or external) mic, one of the most natural sounding.

After hearing all the 'exotic' pickups around, my ear still likes the K&K Pure mini as a point-n-shoot pickup which sounds full, fat and very acoustic guitar-like.

Hottest output signal I've ever encountered in a passive pickup.

[jeepnstein]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Marshall...
They are glued to the bridge plate, and my luthier (he built my last guitar) assured me that if he can remove a bridge, and reinstall it on my best guitar and the repair is not visible, he can remove a K&K in under 5 minutes with a razor blade and it will not damage the bridge plate.

K&K Pure Mini is still one of the best pickups for the money, and when used as ½ of a dual source with an internal (or external) mic, one of the most natural sounding.

After hearing all the 'exotic' pickups around, my ear still likes the K&K Pure mini as a point-n-shoot pickup which sounds full, fat and very acoustic guitar-like.

Hottest output signal I've ever encountered in a passive pickup.

I'll pile on here. A K&K works very well as long as you do your part. The only place I ever ran into trouble was a venue with extremely high stage volume and a sound man who was too busy being a pro to work with me for a minute or two. I'm kind of leaning towards a K&K in my current #1 for times when using a mic isn't really practical. I'm also toying with blending them because my acoustic is getting buried in the mix at church.

If I were playing lots of bars I'd definitely want a pickup. Playing through a mic would be a real obstacle with most of the venues I'm familiar with. Sound men some times freak when they have to deal with a mic on a guitar. There's no good reason for that but in my experience they do.

[Mr Fixit eh]

Originally Posted by wcap

Playing through pickups like this can have some big advantages, since a problem with playing through a microphone can be that shifting your position a bit while playing can result in significant volume changes, thus changing the sound in the mix in cases where you are performing with others. Balance issues are hard enough to deal with even without this extra variable. When playing through pickups you have easier control over volume.

Very true. A stand mounted mic only works for me if I'm sitting, and I don't usually like to sit when I perform.

Originally Posted by royd

Any amplification is a series of compromises. ...
For bars and busking - a highly feedback resistant pup like a mag or UST would be best. a microphone will be a recipe for disaster.

What do I do? I always prefer a dual source system with a magnetic and an SBT. My #1 guitar has a Sunrise magnetic and a McIntyre SBT out via stereo cable to either my rack with a Sunrise buffer & Dtar Solstice OR to a Headway EDB-2 when I want to carry less weight. The pups + rack are about $900 and the EDB-2 runs around $320. My #2 has a Dimarzio Angel dual source with an Angel magnetic and a Shadow UST to an internal blending preamp, more plug and play but a lot less flexible than #1 and I like the UST a lot less than an SBT. They run around $300 I think. Still, I like both rigs a lot. Personally I would never choose to play live into a mic regardless of the setting. Too many problems. And I don't care for internal mics in general.

Absolutely agree. There are 2 problems with a dual source system, of course: (1) money - the cost is 3 to 5 times the cost of a single source; and (2) running a dual source system is more complicated. Like the OP, I am relatively new to amplified, live gigging. I'm running my own mixer, sometimes with a duo act - at this point I couldn't handle trying to adjust a dual source mix as well - heck, I usually don't even think to adjust the bass/treble mix on my preamp

I think the OP would be very well served to add a nice single source under-saddle or under-soundboard transducer preamp system with on-board preamp. That's what I would do if I had it to do over. I opted for an external preamp because I was installing it myself, and didn't want the extra install steps, but the simplicity of an on-board system far outweighs other considerations, now that I've been gigging for a while. The single source system can always be upgraded later, if desired. And if (s)he wants to do some home recording, it would be easy-peasy to get a stand and condensor mic and record with just the mic input, or get fancy and mix the mic and preamp inputs together, as desired.

This amplification thing is quite the journey, isn't it!

Steve

[Dreadfulnaught]

If you are playing with others, an external mic may cause feedback problems. (You also can't move around or your sound changes or is lost.)In that case a piezo pickup would be better. I have an L.R. Baggs in a classical and it sounds wonderful, not the quack stick from days of yore. I play it in church through the PA and it sounds like you are standing inside the guitar!
No one has yet discussed an internal mic. There are many around, and they can sound better than a piezo. Some are on a flexible stalk, some clip to a brace. You can even have both mic and piezo, through a stereo jack to a mixer, where you can balance the two for a great sound. With an internal mic you can use a sound hole cover to avoid feedback.

[The Bard Rocks]

Most folks will readily admit that a good mike definitely sounds better. But the next question is: "Will the audience notice?". And they will almost certainly be cheaper. If 1) you don't move around a lot while playing and 2) if feedback is not an issue, it's the way to go, in my opinion. In my case, it works great - I play seated and don't play bars. I also switch instruments often.

However, there are many things in real life which can change that equation and give the nod to the pickup instead.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by theflink

…In your experience, what produces the best live sound? having a microphone in front of the soundhole/12th fret, or getting a good pickup installed and using that instead.

Hi Marc...

In my experience (17 years of it now), a microphone (even a really good one) may not produce better sound than a carefully designed pickup rig. Or at least, not enough sound to be heard solidly in a room.

I've been using dual source pickup rigs with a pickup and an internal mic.

An internal mic will not sound as transparent as an external one, and it won't howl like one either with proper care. A decent pickup won't sound fully natural either, but when combined with an internal mic, it's amazing how full the sound becomes, and how natural an acoustic guitar can become through a PA or amp.

I started dual-source life with a Baggs rig, and after nearly 7 years with it, switched to K&K Pure Mini pickups and internal K&K mic. Both these two rigs have been pleasing me for the past 17 years.

The K&K is superior to the Baggs rig in that I'm using a bone saddle with nothing underneath it so my acoustic sound (without amplification) is at it's best.

Then the bridge-plate sensors provide a very full bodied sound, while the internal mic adds space to the mix. I actually run the internal mic at about 55% of the mix and the pickup 45%.

I don't use floor monitors, but an acoustic amp 30" off the ground 3-5 feet behind me, so I don't suffer the feedback issues some players have from the sound crew firing a floor monitor at the lower bout of their guitar from less than 3 feet away. That's just asking for trouble.

To me the pickup-rig, the preamp/blender I use, and the stage are key to having a uniform sound on stage so I'm comfortable when I play. When I'm happy with the sound, I relax and play better.

For the most part the audience doesn't care, or at least not on a conscious level. I can tell you that I have room-filling sound wherever I play and sing, and audiences respond well to it. And my guitar is heard even in aggressive stage situations.

[wcap]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Marshall...
They are glued to the bridge plate, and my luthier (he built my last guitar) assured me that if he can remove a bridge, and reinstall it on my best guitar and the repair is not visible, he can remove a K&K in under 5 minutes with a razor blade and it will not damage the bridge plate.

K&K Pure Mini is still one of the best pickups for the money, and when used as ½ of a dual source with an internal (or external) mic, one of the most natural sounding.

After hearing all the 'exotic' pickups around, my ear still likes the K&K Pure mini as a point-n-shoot pickup which sounds full, fat and very acoustic guitar-like.

Hottest output signal I've ever encountered in a passive pickup.

Larry,

Have you tried your K&K pickups with a RedEye preamp? I've been very impressed by how much better they sound, and how very acoustic they sound (all on their own, even without also using a mic) when sent through the RedEye.

And when I send this all through my little Allen and Heath mixer and add just a touch of reverb it can be particularly nice.