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#1
02-13-2016, 10:08 AM
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How long did it take you?
Frequent lurker, infrequent poster here
 I'm hoping to hear from others on how long it took you to 'de-couple' your singing from your playing. Im not able to practice every day, busy job, 3 kids, etc. I have been a guitar noodler for years, have only recently decided that I really want to sing and play. Nothing intricate, think Nirvana Unplugged, Johnny Cash, etc. For example I can play Folsom Prisom with the 'boom chuck' type strum all day long (ok, the change to B7 can still be weird) - and I can do a very simple strum and sing the song - but when I try to boom chucka and sing, the Folsom train comes off the tracks �� I know there is no standard answer - but thoughts on this - am I ever going to get it - any suggestions for me? On a related note - I also want to learn to play finger style- bought a couple of Toby's lessons (great btw) - my alternating thumb will not alternate. I know the question is asked daily - but is this just a matter of hammering it out with my limited time, any tips? I don't expect there is an easy button, but I really want to move along in my playing! Thanks in advance for any stories, tips, or words of encouragement! 
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#2
02-13-2016, 10:58 AM
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You know what everyone is going to say - practice, practice, practice...
I made a practice chart/form...years ago and still use it everyday. Items can be entered for as little as 10 min at a time. It all adds up. 
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#3
02-13-2016, 12:09 PM
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I'm new at simultaneous singing & playing too. It's been about 9 months now and things are coming along just fine. Matter of fact, I'm finding it very difficult to NOT sing and play at the same time now.
I started with songs whose lyrics closely tracked the music and chord changes. For example, I still cannot do Zepplin's "Over The Hills And Far Away" because the lyrics and music are disjoint. It's just a matter of refinement -and that takes practice. If you're learning a new guitar piece, it helps to hum along while you're learning it. Later on, turn the humming to words. I still find a slight drop in performance in both guitar playing and quality of vocals but, that changes from day to day. Sometimes, I'm hitting it really solid -sometimes one, the other, or both degrade a bit. -Doesn't stop me from enjoying it though... Stay on it. You'll get there. Ray
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#4
02-13-2016, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
I teach fingerstyle and yes, Travis picking with alternate bass is accomplished over time. Start by playing the bass notes till you have them even and sustainable while you are holding a conversation with someone. Then to add the chords, don't go for broke right off the bat. Play the alternating bass while plucking the chord and let the chord ring through 2 iterations of Root-Alternate Root-Alternate. When you can sustain the plucked chord and transition to other chords using two pairs of root/alternate, then shorten it to only one set…and do all this at 60 beats per minute or less (slow in other words). Slow and steady is better than fast and erratic (or slow and erratic for that matter)…it's not the only lesson I teach fingerstyle students when they explore Travis picking, but it's probably one of the most fundamental parts of it. Hope this helps
__________________
Baby #1.1 Baby #1.2 Baby #02 Baby #03 Baby #04 Baby #05 Larry's songs... …Just because you've argued someone into silence doesn't mean you have convinced them…
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#6
02-13-2016, 01:07 PM
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Hi
Sounds like you have got the tunes sorted with the guitar. Perhaps practice the singing bit where you do have time:driving to work. I sing along to the originals in the car on the way to work - over and over. Steve
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#8
02-13-2016, 08:57 PM
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It depends on the rhythm. I could do basic strumming with vocals as soon as I could do basic strumming without vocals, as long as the vocals and strumming were in easy syncopation.
Now, I use some rhythms that are really easy for me to sing to, because it's sort of my natural groove, but I know some other people would have a lot of trouble getting used to. Those sort of happened naturally, the better I got at guitar, I could just also sing over my playing. Same for piano, although I'd say piano would probably be a bit easier to do more complex stuff I guess. It's more simply visual than guitar. I think that might be why. Every once in a while, I still encounter some songs that I have trouble with, and that I find have an odd vocals rhythm with the music, especially for songs where the vocalist is not playing the music as well. Kind of like how tapping your head and rubbing your stomach is tough. So, I have to take it easy, and slow it down, and practice it a little bit for those ones. It can help to know both separately, but the real work for me, comes from really figuring out what happens relative to what. Last edited by Monk of Funk; 02-13-2016 at 09:03 PM.
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#9
02-13-2016, 09:25 PM
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I'm certain that my guitar playing is not what it could be as a result of my emphasis on singing. S'ok. It's my opinion that two voices in harmony (my guitar and I) are better than one. I didn't set out to be a master player, I love music, I love to sing and the guitar and piano are the instruments that accompany me.
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#10
02-14-2016, 12:08 AM
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Here is an exercise I have picked up over the years that I do quite frequently. You can start with exercise 1 at any time, just have a guitar ready while the coffee is brewing or the game is on the tv and wrap a rag around the strings because this will get old after a while. But you know what - running distance or pressing weights gets old too, but the guys that practice it alot wind up going to the Olympics, and those who never practice watch on the tube.
Note: Because both Word and the posting window don't give me all the right hand space I need, the entire scale is not shown. Make sure you finish the scale by going all the way to the G note, third fret high E string. But you will get the idea soon enough. Exercise 1 – Open G chord Alternate the Bass G and the open D E--------------------------------------------------------------- B--------------------------------------------------------------- G--------------------------------------------------------------- D----------------T------------T------------T-------------T--- A--------------------------------------------------------------- E-------T-------------T--------------T------------T---------- Exercise 2 – When you hit the Bass G note, pinch the open G with your index finger and run the G scale slowly, front and back E-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------0-------------2 B--------------------------------------0--------------1--------------3 G--------0------------2--------------------------------------- D----------------T------------T---------------T---------------T----------T------------T-------------T A--------------------------------------------------------------- E-------T-------------T--------------T---------------T-------------T------------T-------------T Exercise 3 – Repeat using your middle finger as the pinch finger instead of the index Exercise 4 – Repeat using your ring finger as the pinch finger instead of the middle Exercise 5 – Repeat using your index finger on the G string, your middle finger on the B string, and your ring finger on the E string Next Exercise – Pinch after hitting the open D with your thumb E----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------0-------------2 B----------------------------------------------0--------------1-----------3 G----------------0------------2--------------------------------------- D----------------T------------T---------------T---------------T----------T------------T-------------T A--------------------------------------------------------------- E-------T-------------T--------------T---------------T-------------T------------T-------------T Exercise 7 – Repeat using your middle finger as the pinch finger instead of the index Exercise 8 – Repeat using your ring finger as the pinch finger instead of the middle Exercise 9 – Repeat using your index finger on the G string, your middle finger on the B string, and your ring finger on the E string Next Exercise – Syncopate after the G Bass note with your index finger E------------------------------------------------------------------------------------0-------------2 B-----------------------------------------0----------------1-------------3 G------------0------------2--------------------------------------- D----------------T------------T---------------T---------------T-----------T------------T------------T A--------------------------------------------------------------- E-------T-------------T--------------T---------------T-------------T----------T------------T Exercise 11–Repeat using your middle finger as the pinch finger instead of the index Exercise 12–Repeat using your ring finger as the pinch finger instead of the middle Exercise 13 – Repeat using your index finger on the G string, your middle finger on the B string, and your ring finger on the E string Next Exercise – Syncopate after the D bass note with your index finger E-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------0---------- B--------------------------------------------------0----------------1-------------3 G--------------------0------------2--------------------------------------- D----------------T------------T---------------T---------------T-----------T------------T------------T A--------------------------------------------------------------- E-------T-------------T--------------T-----------------T---------------T--------------T------------T Exercise 15–Repeat using your middle finger as the pinch finger instead of the index Exercise 16–Repeat using your ring finger as the pinch finger instead of the middle Exercise 17 – Repeat using your index finger on the G string, your middle finger on the B string, and your ring finger on the E string Next Exercise – Syncopate after the G and D bass note with your index finger E---------------------------------------------------0-------2----------3 B----------------------------------1-----3 G-----------0-------2--------------------------------------- D----------------T------------T---------------T-----------------T------------T------------T A--------------------------------------------------------------- E-------T-------------T--------------T-----------------T-----------------------------T------------T Exercise 19–Repeat using your middle finger as the pinch finger instead of the index Exercise 20–Repeat using your ring finger as the pinch finger instead of the middle Exercise 21 – Repeat using your index finger on the G string, your middle finger on the B string, and your ring finger on the E string Next set of exercises – do the same thing but run the G scale backwards.
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#11
02-14-2016, 08:23 AM
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Thanks for the help everyone! I'm not of the mindset that there is a shortcut - however nice that would be. I started playing around yesterday with working on alternating bass on the G-C-D chord progression, with my fingers pinching the remaining notes of the chord. That seems to be pointing me in the right direction - thanks for the advice Cypress - that looks like good stuff and I will be working on it. As far as singing and playing - yep I can sing and play when vocal matches the guitar (still far from pro, but it's coming along). I think I just need to be more patient with myself and also try to stick to a more defined practice routine. Right now I have 3-4 songs I'm working on singing/playing. I find if I'm only working on one I get distracted too quickly. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not....
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#12
02-14-2016, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
The books are: Contemporary Travis Picking The Art of Solo Fingerpicking One of the big breakthroughs I had when I was learning finger style was to just play along with one of the exercises with the cd or even without the cd and just play the bass part slowly. Then once I more or less knew the beat and the tab for the thumb I would go back and add the rest, but very slowly. It isn't really as hard as you think it is. It isn't like your thumb is playing one song and the rest of your fingers a different one. (Although at first it seems like it.) ( I might have even learned that trick from LJ, lol) I have to add though that I first starting playing back in 1963 and even though I didn't play steady, when I was learning finger style (2005ish) I didn't have to worry about what my fretting hand was doing. Toby's stuff is great, (I have a bunch of his stuff) but I wouldn't recommend it for beginner. It's doable, but it might be a little tough. It depends on your natural ability/desire to learn. Good luck, it will come to you.
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Barry My SoundCloud page Avalon L-320C, Guild D-120, Martin D-16GT, McIlroy A20, Pellerin SJ CW Cordobas - C5, Fusion 12 Orchestra, C12, Stage Traditional Alvarez AP66SB, Seagull Folk Aria {Johann Logy}: Last edited by TBman; 02-14-2016 at 12:04 PM. Reason: grammar
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#13
02-14-2016, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Cypress's exercises are good but you don't have to start with thumb alone. I think it's better to involve thumb and fingers together from the start. Eg, Beat 1 might be thumb alone; Beat 2 maybe thumb and finger together in a pinch; Beat 3 thumb alone, but followed by a finger on the "and"; Beat 4 thumb alone. That produces a common one-bar element of various standard 2-bar patterns. Play it real slow, maybe with a metronome on all the 8th notes to begin with, so the thumb is on every odd 8th note (1-3-5-7 etc), and the finger (you only need one to begin with) might coincide with the thumb, or be on an 8th note between two thumb strokes. The idea is to steadily speed that up, but always sticking with the complete pattern, so the thumb and fingers are always acting as a unit. It's only after you get really used to playing these patterns that the thumb starts to feel independent. It isn't really - it's still attached to your hand! - it's just its repetitive nature that enters your subconscious before the more varied finger patterns do.I always used to believe my own thumb was independent, and tried teaching it that way, but it never succeeded. It's easy to get thumb alone working, but introducing fingers always upsets it. Then I really thought back to how I taught myself fingerstyle, and realised I'd done it through repetition of simple patterns, slow and accurate, as above - not through starting with the thumb! I'd start with a record I wanted to copy, slow it down, and break down the pattern; then work on thumb and fingers together copying the pattern beat by beat, bar by bar. It certainly worked for me. I'm sure larry is right that his "thumb alone first" works if you can do it like he says, until you can hold a conversation while doing it. That's a sure sign it's entered your subconscious, which is where you want it. You can then add fingers. I'm only saying my alternative method will also work. It's still not a shortcut of course, you still have to be patient and spend time slow and steady before speeding up. But I do believe the "independent thumb" is a myth. "Subconscious thumb", yes - but it always acts in tandem with the fingers, as a "one-hand unit". It's just a matter of how you get them to work together.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
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#14
02-15-2016, 08:02 PM
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De-couple? I suppose you mean coordinate the hands and voice so I'll go with that.
One year. I'm a slow burner. I could fingerpick pretty well by the time I attempted singing. It was a whole new matter to deal with. But, like learning to play, I eventually learned to sing along with it and I still remember it took me about a year to become natural at it. After that I was unstoppable. It was a fun transition and time. Keep at it.
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#15
02-21-2016, 09:27 PM
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I've neglected my singing for learning fingerstyle. But when I do get round to practising my vocals I find what helps me is to hum the tune while keeping beat with my hands or feet (no guitar) so I can figure out which syllables land on which beats. This helps me fit the melody correctly to the strumming pattern.
Then on the guitar, any areas of the song that aren't easy (usually those not syncopated with the strumming) I slow wayyyyy wayyyyy down until I have it, then slowly speed it back up. The more you do this, and more songs you learn the easier it will get. Hopefully you will eventually reach a point where you don't really have to think about it. That's my hope anyway. Another trick I saw was to fake strum. Accentuate a silent strum so that it feels more syncopated with the lyrics. So say there is a lyric on a downstroke (but that downstroke is NOT normally strummed). I will mentally & physically accentuate that downstroke more than I normally would, so that it feels like it's part of the strumming pattern when it actually isn't. If that makes sense.
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