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Old 06-09-2014, 07:07 AM
StayGold StayGold is offline
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Default What pick up should i get for a Martin HD-28?

hey guys, this is my first post on this site! i just purchased a used 2002 Martin HD 28 and really need to get a pick up installed but i cant decide which one. so far my top two picks are the LR Baggs Anthem and the LR Baggs Lyric. was wondering if anyone on here also has an HD28 and had a pick up installed. i play out live quite a bit and it will be my main guitar.

any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
thanks!
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Old 06-09-2014, 07:39 AM
kydave kydave is offline
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K&K Pure Mini in all my Martins.

Friends don't let friends use under saddle transducers.

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Old 06-09-2014, 07:51 AM
mjz mjz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kydave View Post
K&K Pure Mini in all my Martins.

Friends don't let friends use under saddle transducers.

Actually friends don't let friends make uninformed decisions

There are times the K&K might be the right pick-up.
Other times the UST is the perfect choice.
There are many considerations.

Here is an old post I first offered for someone looking for the right pick-up for their Martin Nancy Wilson.
These are just some of the considerations that go into picking the right pick-up for your HD-28.
Quote:
Re: Electronics for Nancy


You might want to start here, www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm. This is an incredible site to demo the sounds of various pick-up systems in various brands, shapes, and sizes of guitar. You will leave this site understanding the tone of a UST (Under Saddle Transducer), An SBT (Sound Board Transducer) which is essentially the same as an AST (Acoustic Soundboard Transducer), a magnetic sound hole pick-up (MAG), and a condenser microphone.

But tone is only part of the story. If it were the whole story we'd all be debating which microphone to buy instead of which pick-up to install.

For me, choosing the right pick-up is an exercise in compromise. The challenge is in determining where to compromise.

Along with tone you have to consider feedback. The very properties that make many guitars sound so great unplugged -- the sustain, the complexity of overtones, that killer bass response -- are the very same things that allow it to feedback fairly easily on stage. Remember, feedback is nothing more than a loop of oscillating frequencies that continually get re-amplified and eventually reach VU levels that render them unappealing to the human ear. Think of your guitar as one potential point in the loop.

The Loop
Guitar strings create frequencies -- pick-up sends frequency through amplification and out loudspeakers -- Guitar body receives those frequencies from loudspeakers and vibrates sympathetically --- pick up re-sends those frequencies back through amplification and out loudspeakers -- and on and on and on.

There are all types of ways to break this loop.
1. Parametric EQ isolating and removing the specific offending frequency. This can be an inserted 31 band EQ , part of a feedback ferret (automatic feedback search and destroyer), or a notch filter(s) as in the Baggs Para DI or The Fishman Aura.
2. Addressing the acoustical properties of the room as in a studio
3. Addressing the geometry of speaker and monitor placement relative to the guitar
4. Addressing the pick-up's characteristics and ability to recapture the offending frequency in the loop.

Some of us who ask the proverbial pick-up question are seeking the best tone possible and are willing to invest in technology and knowledge to embrace the list above -- but many of us just want to play guitar and not worry about all that stuff. To find the answer to your question you'll have to decide where you fit in. In other words, how much are you willing to compromise.

Some types of pick-ups and characteristics.

The SBT/AST
These are pick-ups that affix to the underside of the bridge plate and sense vibrations. The K&K Pure System is very popular on this forum. So is the B-Band AST as well as the Baggs I Beam. These units work more like a condenser microphone in the way they pick up and transmit signals. You can hear them on the Doug Young site.

One drawback is they are the most prone to feedback among traditional pick-up sources.

The UST
These pick-ups sit between the saddle and the bridge. They are made of either piezo crystals or a copolymer strip that essentially acts the same way. They work differently than an SBT or condenser microphone. When a piezoceramic element or copolymer strip is stressed mechanically by the vibration of the strings through the saddle, it generates an electric charge and a voltage associated with the charge appears. That voltage is then amplified, transmitted and reproduced.

When considering your feedback loop it's easy to see how the system resists feedback. It takes louder sound levels to have the frequencies loop by being picked-up through your saddle and onto the UST. The compromise, however, is sound quality.

The Fishman Matrix system is a very popular pick-up . They are also known as Natural I(a flat response system) and the Natural II (EQ'd to cut some bass response -- this is the one recommended by Martin for your dread). Martin re-brands them the Gold plus or something like that, but it's the same pick-up.

Other popular USTs include the PUTW, the DTAR Timberline, and the Baggs element. Recently Maury Rutch of Maury's Music (shameless plug for a friend) has been touting DTAR's new UST, the Wavelength. It utilizes a high impedance output and may have solved the piezo "quack" syndrome. Those electrical charges created by the crystal or copolymer strip can sound like a quack when they get overly excited, as in a hard strum. The Wavelength's amplification voltage and impedance settles this down a bit. More info on Maurysmusic.com.

One interesting recent development is the introduction of modelers like the Fishman Aura and DTAR Mama Bear. These essentially change the sound signature of the UST signal to more closely resemble the signature of your guitar reproduced through a selected microphone. They do this changing EQ, attack and delay times, gain, and a bunch of other parameters (or bits) that Fishman and DTAR aren't talking about. They sound pretty good, but are still a compromise.

The Magnetic Sound hole Transducer.
These pick-ups sit in the sound hole and use the magnetic resonance to create a voltage to reproduce your guitars sound.
This makes them the least susceptible to feedback. They don't sound very "natural", but some offerings definitely sound better. The Baggs M1, the Fishman Rare Earth Series, and the Sunrise are worth considering. You know the Sunrise sound if you've ever heard a live recording of Keith Richards playing acoustic. It sounds pretty darn good on "Stripped"

So, armed with this knowledge of feedback and the sound samples from Doug Young's site -- you have some decisions to make and compromises to accept.

Are you likely to play at lower sound levels? Are you after pure acoustic tone? If you do want a bit more VU can you take time to figure out the geometries of speaker and monitor placement or nominally invest in some feedback suppression gear and time to learn it? If so, the SBT is a good place to start. My D45V has a Trance Audio Acoustic Amulet in it. Although it's an SBT, it utilizes the same principle as the DTAR Wavelength by operating at a different impedance and gain making it a bit less susceptible to feedback.

Or are you more likely to play with loud band mates (think lead guitarist and my obnoxiously loud bass playing friend Jim) and require higher stage monitoring volumes? If that's the case consider a UST or a higher quality Mag like the Sunrise. I have three guitars, An HD28, A D12-35, and an OM-28V that utilize the Fishman Matrix system. And I own an Aura which definitely makes an impact on the quality of tone.

One last consideration is one of the blend systems that conceivably gives you the best of both worlds. The K&K Trinity is very popular on this forum as is the Fishman Elipse.

Anyone of these systems can utilize onboard pre-amp controls for convenience or off board which means you don't put a hole in the side of your guitar. Some people are adamant about not cutting a hole in their guitar. Others are not. I have two with holes.

One thing to remember, there is no right or wrong. Only you can decide which compromise works best for you. After reading this long post (that only scratches the surface of the answer to your question by the way), I wouldn't be surprised if you just ran out and bought a mic and only ever played in a rubber room
Good luck,

Max
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  #4  
Old 06-09-2014, 07:58 AM
icy_wind500 icy_wind500 is offline
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I had tried both the lyric and the k&k mini. Maybe because I use the Lr baggs venue as well, I find the lyric sounds more natural.
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acoustic, lr baggs, martin, martin hd-28, pick up install

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