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Old 08-18-2009, 07:02 AM
crikey crikey is offline
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Default Healdsburg Concerts - Guitar Pickups - Why?

This is more a curiosity question than anything else. I saw a few pics of guitars being played through pickup systems at the Healdsburg concerts. I personally don't mind the sound and color of a GOOD signal chain through a PA when I hear live acoustic music. Normally, that is. But I would think this wouldn't be happening at the Healdsburg live shows. Seems like the shows were played in acoustically capable rooms, so I'm just wondering why these guitars weren't mic'd with good quality [transparent] mics - to showcase the natural color/nuance/tonal characteristics of the actual guitars being played. For customers to note differences, etc. If the rooms just weren't that acoustically conducive for mic'ing guitars, I could understand.

Was there a particular reason these guitars weren't mic'd?

I have a need to know such things.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:07 AM
JSDenvir JSDenvir is offline
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I asked the same question in another thread, but I think it got buried in the guitar porn :-)

"Some great stuff, thanks. But one thing struck me as odd. All the McKnight guitars being demoed on stage had pickups and were plugged in. As a method of selling or promoting acoustic guitars, this struck me as being kinda counterintuitive.

Was that relatively common, or was this an unusual circumstance?"
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:08 AM
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Brent Hutto Brent Hutto is offline
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One can only conclude that the performers and sponsors of the concerts did not think hearing all those nuances was important to the audience. If I had been in the audience that assumption would have been dead wrong. But I wasn't so maybe it wasn't, if you know what I mean.

I've read postings in forums like this one in which people lead me to believe they bought a guitar based (at least partly) on a video they saw on YouTube. Compressed to within an inch of its life YouTube audio that was originally captured by the built-in mic on a cheap camcorder. In some cases you can hear the household noise and room noise as much as the music. And yet someone will post excitedly about that being the tone they've been looking for all their life and they've just got to get one of those guitars.

Between the Healdsburg "demos" in a convention hall full of noise, the concerts you mention with $10,000-and-up acoustic guitars being played through UST's and room PA's and the YouTube "tone" enthusiasts one can only conclude that people buy guitars that they want to buy and all the talk about "tone" is often a smokescreen. People in general love to fool themselves if doing so gives them cover for something they're going to do anyway.

P.S. If I were going to flirt with not being Nice perhaps I'd mention something about cosmetically elaborate "work of art" guitars and plugged-in performances being perfectly consistent from the point of view of a stage performer who will be playing to mostly non-guitar-geek audiences through PA systems. Tone matters little, appearances matter much in certain venues and contexts.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:16 AM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crikey View Post
This is more a curiosity question than anything else. I saw a few pics of guitars being played through pickup systems at the Healdsburg concerts. I personally don't mind the sound and color of a GOOD signal chain through a PA when I hear live acoustic music. Normally, that is. But I would think this wouldn't be happening at the Healdsburg live shows. Seems like the shows were played in acoustically capable rooms, so I'm just wondering why these guitars weren't mic'd with good quality [transparent] mics - to showcase the natural color/nuance/tonal characteristics of the actual guitars being played. For customers to note differences, etc. If the rooms just weren't that acoustically conducive for mic'ing guitars, I could understand.

Was there a particular reason these guitars weren't mic'd?

I have a need to know such things.
That's a very, very good question, especially given the venue.

I spent many years amplifying acoustic guitars, and in fact I put my first sound board transducer on a guitar in 1970, so I've been at this for a while.

Eventually I realized that the point of my playing live was to be actively listened to, as opposed to my being able to rise above the din with brute volume capabilities.

To that end I reached the conclusion that I would only play on mic (guitar and vocals) in venues where there was active listening, ie house concerts, etc.

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Old 08-18-2009, 07:31 AM
JohnJayPl JohnJayPl is offline
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That's a great question. One of the mysteries of life I guess.

I wasn't at this Healdsburg but I've been a few times before. At the previous one I spent all 3 days pretty much in the concert room. Some of the steel string makers did turn the sound systme off- most didn't.

The Classical makers, there weren't many of those, seemed to have a whole different attitude. When the sound guy asked about mic or pickups they usually just smiled and said the guitar would be fine on its own. And they were.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:36 AM
hreboredo hreboredo is offline
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Tim McKnight can probably best answer this since he used the pickups on the guitars he brought. Speaking to him I think he thought it was the better call for his guitars given the room. I think most of the acoustic guitars in the mini concert were demonstrated without using pickups.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Emerson View Post

Eventually I realized that the point of my playing live was to be actively listened to, as opposed to my being able to rise above the din with brute volume capabilities.
and therein lies the reason I've been almost cold turkey from performing for the last few years. There are very few "rooms" in my locale that are conducive to active listening......it's certainly more rewarding that way!

Also, for myself, as my guitars have become much better over the years, I've become less and less interested in amplification via pickup. There just aren't ANY out there that come close to a fine handbuilt guitars timbre.

I could see the auditorium that was in one of the Healsburg pics with a pretty high end PA set up and a few good quality mics. One thing that I consider in a large part of a guitar purchase is how microphone friendly it is....I'm sure there are other buyers/players that would feel the same.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:55 AM
jameshughd jameshughd is offline
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Default Healdsburg Demonstration Concerts

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Originally Posted by hreboredo View Post
Tim McKnight can probably best answer this since he used the pickups on the guitars he brought. Speaking to him I think he thought it was the better call for his guitars given the room. I think most of the acoustic guitars in the mini concert were demonstrated without using pickups.
I guess I was one of the lucky new McKnight owners - I got to play my 12-string on Thursday evening in my motel room, and Friday night, and then again on Saturday at our McJam. Lots of music without amplification or mikes. I heard the tonal qualities of my guitar up close and personal even before I heard Michael Chapdelaine play her on stage -- plugged in. Since I knew her already to some extent, I thought the sound through the PA system was pretty transparent and clean and since I had the K&K installed so I can play in worship services, it was good to hear her plugged in. Guess the privilege of listening to mine before hearing the performance was a good thing.

I understand some of the issues in question here and always appreciate the constructive aspects of the conversation here. There was a lot of noise, the quiet rooms weren't always that quiet, and it could have been (probably was) harder to get a true sense of a guitar's quality and tonality. And many of the guitars played in all the performance venues didn't hit the $10,000 mark but stayed well under that - a tribute I think - to the builders themselves and the quality of even the new builders on the rise.

There were some eye-candy guitars at Healdsburg, some wild designs, but mostly what I saw and heard from the straight-up acoustic builders were solid, unpretentious well-built instruments with appropriate appointments. I played about 20 from other builders and know I made a great choice with my McKnight.
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:57 AM
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Tim McKnight Tim McKnight is offline
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Michael Chapdelaine played our mini concerts and we gave him free rein to choose any three guitars, of the five that we brought, to play on stage. The three guitars that he chose, just happened to have K&K minis installed in them. Given Michael's playing style and energetic movement on stage it was probably a wise choice to use pick ups verses trying to hold him still in front of the mic's Besides K&Ks products are one of the most acoustically transparent pick ups available (IMO) so it was also an opportunity to hear how they worked in our guitars as well.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:17 AM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSDenvir View Post
All the McKnight guitars being demoed on stage had pickups and were plugged in.
Maybe because they all had pickups installed?

I had a pickup installed in mine just because I like to have one . . . even though I don't often hook up to an amp.

BTW, I think all of Tim's were K&K Pure Western Mini pickups, which IMO sound very natural.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:27 AM
raulb raulb is offline
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I wasn't there and have not talked to anyone about it, but since I am the Pontificator Extraordinaire, I would like to postulate one idea: The guitars were played with pick-ups instead of played through microphones because that is what the audience expected--or because that is what the performer/luther expected the audience to expect.

I have not talked to any of them about this, but I suspect that many/most luthers may have enough experience with people ordering their guitars with pick-up systems installed, or asking them what kind of pick-up system to install, that it just becomes expected now days. So, a conscious or unconscious decision was made to showcase the instruments that way.

Luthers, how many steel string customers do you have who do not ask you about or mention pick-ups in connection to the new build? My bet is that there are not many.

Corollary: The concert's performers were performers who are used to playing through pick-up systems instead of microphones.

Classical guitar buyers and performers I would expect to be an entirely different breed.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:33 AM
crikey crikey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
BTW, I think all of Tim's were K&K Pure Western Mini pickups, which IMO sound very natural.
I happen to like the Western Mini as well. They might "sound very natural," but they don't convey the "natural" sound of the actual guitar like a high quality transparent mic would. Once it's run through a signal chain - it's an electric guitar, not an acoustic - no matter how "natural" sounding the p/u is. IMO. Again - the reason I posed the question was more a curiosity thing. After all, it was Healdsburg.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:37 AM
crikey crikey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raulb View Post
I wasn't there and have not talked to anyone about it, but since I am the Pontificator Extraordinaire, I would like to postulate one idea: The guitars were played with pick-ups instead of played through microphones because that is what the audience expected--or because that is what the performer/luther expected the audience to expect.

I have not talked to any of them about this, but I suspect that many/most luthers may have enough experience with people ordering their guitars with pick-up systems installed, or asking them what kind of pick-up system to install, that it just becomes expected now days. So, a conscious or unconscious decision was made to showcase the instruments that way.

Luthers, how many steel string customers do you have who do not ask you about or mention pick-ups in connection to the new build? My bet is that there are not many.

Corollary: The concert's performers were performers who are used to playing through pick-up systems instead of microphones.

Classical guitar buyers and performers I would expect to be an entirely different breed.
What I'm getting from this is that the Healdsburg customers, luthiers, and performers care about playability more than anything else. Is that what you're saying?
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:46 AM
SongwriterFan SongwriterFan is offline
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I think it has more to do with the concerts mainly being for entertainment, rather than trying to be a fair comparison of the guitars available at Healdsburg.

If it were the latter, they'd use high-quality transparent mics, the same guitarist, and the same song for each guitar . . one right after the other.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:52 AM
crikey crikey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
I think it has more to do with the concerts mainly being for entertainment, rather than trying to be a fair comparison of the guitars available at Healdsburg.
That's an answer I never thought about. I'd had the impression it was more about GAS than entertainment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SongwriterFan View Post
If it were the latter, they'd use high-quality transparent mics, the same guitarist, and the same song for each guitar . . one right after the other.
All that (same guitarist/same song) wouldn't be necessary. But using people who didn't mind playing mic'd would be.
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