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  #31  
Old 09-26-2017, 03:10 AM
pieterh pieterh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James May View Post
I want to address the point you make about ToneDexter, since it is an understandably misconception that we are trying to dispel. You don't need a killer mic or a good room. We have routinely trained up with modest mics ($150) on trade show floors with very loud ambient noise, and gotten excellent results.

We are overdue for a new video that shows exactly the minimum you need to do train and get great results. We'll have something up soon.

In the meantime, glad you have something that is working for you.
I was reading all the comments about the ToneDexter and getting quite excited - I have two guitars with the K&K Pure Mini which doesn't work well with the Aura (or so I've heard) but would presumably work well with the ToneDexter.

Then I saw that it only ships within the USA. Darn it...
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  #32  
Old 09-26-2017, 01:15 PM
ChapinFan ChapinFan is offline
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Originally Posted by pieterh View Post
I was reading all the comments about the ToneDexter and getting quite excited - I have two guitars with the K&K Pure Mini which doesn't work well with the Aura (or so I've heard) but would presumably work well with the ToneDexter.

Then I saw that it only ships within the USA. Darn it...
I would be curious to know if the ToneDextor would be a better solution for the Pure Mini. I thought (though am probably wrong) that the basic idea behind the Aura Pedal and the ToneDextor was the same -- just the implementation is different. Whereas the Aura has build in models, in the ToneDextor, you use your own guitar's sound to model one unique to the guitar. So, I would expect that if Aura wouldn't work, then neither would the ToneDextor.

Maybe someone who owns a ToneDextor could chime in and give us the rundown?
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  #33  
Old 09-26-2017, 01:27 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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The Tondexter develops a wave map or image through a learning process. It compares your guitar’s pickup output with the reading from a microphone taken simultaneously. It’s a similar thought process for Fishman, except that they use the same Fishman (Matrix) pickup for every image. So, if you have a Matrix, the Aura works well. Tonedexter, in theory works well with every piezo pickup.
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  #34  
Old 09-27-2017, 06:43 PM
Dave L Dave L is offline
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The Matrix is a good system. My guess is it's not installed correctly or the saddle material could be incompatible. I have a CEO7 that sounds great and it has a Matrix.
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  #35  
Old 09-29-2017, 11:58 AM
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Christopher Cozad Christopher Cozad is offline
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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
The Tondexter develops a wave map or image through a learning process. It compares your guitar’s pickup output with the reading from a microphone taken simultaneously. It’s a similar thought process for Fishman, except that they use the same Fishman (Matrix) pickup for every image. So, if you have a Matrix, the Aura works well. Tonedexter, in theory works well with every piezo pickup.
That is a good point regarding the Aura images being created using a Fishman pickup. (For posterity) I would add that, in addition to the ToneDexter WaveMap being created using your (piezo) pickup of choice, the microphone (used during the learning process) is listening to *your* guitar, whereas the Aura images are built using someone else's instrument(s).
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  #36  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:07 PM
ChapinFan ChapinFan is offline
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The Matrix is a good system. My guess is it's not installed correctly or the saddle material could be incompatible. I have a CEO7 that sounds great and it has a Matrix.
I think you may be on to something, Dave.

Apparently, Guild experimented with making the nut and the bridge with a product called Micarta -- not plastic exactly, but not bone, either. I suspect that there my be some transference issues because the the man-made material. But that is just a guess.
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  #37  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:11 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by ChapinFan View Post
I think you may be on to something, Dave.



Apparently, Guild experimented with making the nut and the bridge with a product called Micarta -- not plastic exactly, but not bone, either. I suspect that there my be some transference issues because the the man-made material. But that is just a guess.

Micarta is a material made from paper and resin, if I recall. It’s fine. There are better materials. Cow bone, or even synthetic TUSQ from Graphtec may help. Lots of info available on saddle and nut materials.
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  #38  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:25 PM
ChapinFan ChapinFan is offline
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I'm putting this here as sort of an epilogue to this long story... in case anyone stumbles across this in the future:

Oh the things I have learned since first making this post... (And the first thing I learned is what a Luthier is!)

So, took my Guild D40C to a Luthier to have him look it over, and give me an opinion on the dreaded quack. After an examination a few very interesting things started coming out. First, the bridge of my Guild is not bone, it is Micarta -- which might account for the "trebly" sound of the pickup.

But, what was interesting was the other things discovered. First off, he was surprised because the action of the Guild looked pretty good to the naked eye. When he put his meters on it, he could see a slight rise in the action, but for a 36 year old guitar -- not too bad.

Then he looked at the bridge. And I got my first: "Oh oh" from him. The bridge is very low. He told me that what has happened was that over the years, as the neck started moving, my guitar tech had to file away the bridge to keep the action right. And although that worked, it was out of room, and he gave me the dreaded diagnosis: "It needs a Neck Reset."

But here's what's weird. I had never had my guitar worked on before. Not ever. I was the first and only owner of the Guild D40C. I had never had it in the shop. Not even to have strings put on it. The only person who ever worked on it was the tech who put in my Matrix pickup (not the Luthier guy, another one.) It seems HIGHLY unlikely that he filed the bridge down.

So what happened? It seems that it happened at the Westerly Guild factory. The theory being that the guy who built the guitar (maybe he was new?) set the neck wrong when he initially glued it up. Rather than reset the neck, they filed down the bridge and sent it out as is. IDK. It could have happened, I guess.

But does that account for the quack? My luthier doesn't think so. He doesn't have a good answer for it, either. I had him redo the frets, and replug the holes the string pins go into. That solved a light "rattle" I had and the buzzing on the frets. (That actually ended up drawing more attention to the quack, incidentally. Now there is nothing distracting you from the quack!) The quack is still there.

Luthier, obviously, thinks I should do the neck reset and replace the bridge with bone. That might solve the quack, but even he won't guarantee it. He has installed the Matrix in some of his custom guitars, and he has never had an issue like this.

My hunch tells me it is the bridge. I think replacing the bridge would fix the issue -- but there is no sense in doing it unless/until I get the neck reset.

The thing is, I no longer care. There is no quack when I am full acoustic. And the sound I get thanks to the Aura Pedal is really close to my Guild's natural sound (I picked a Guild Dread image from their library). I think before I would bother with the neck reset + bridge and nut replacement (which is pretty pricey) I'd probably give tone dexter a try. It probably would give me the exact sound I am looking for. But what I have now is so close, that I'm pretty content to leave things as they are... and start saving up for my next guitar instead.

Thanks for everyone who jumped in with advice!
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  #39  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:26 PM
ChapinFan ChapinFan is offline
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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
Micarta is a material made from paper and resin, if I recall. It’s fine. There are better materials. Cow bone, or even synthetic TUSQ from Graphtec may help. Lots of info available on saddle and nut materials.
Yep. Dead on. And you are right... there are better materials.
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  #40  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:39 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Installed a Fishman Matrix Infinity and I hate it -- now what?

Hi ChapinFan,

You’ll need to take some time and consider your options. I see them as distinct.

One, with a neck reset, you’ll potentially gain some playing benefits. The action can be lowered and the saddle (note, not the bridge) raised.

This probably won’t change the tone of the pickup. Although, when a saddle is too short (as yours might be) the pickup tone can sometimes be degraded.

The Aura pedal is already doing its job, so I wouldn’t worry about Tonedexter right now. Stick with the Matrix and Aura pedal.

Otherwise, you can often expect an improvement in the acoustic tone of the guitar after a neck set. The geometry improves and the higher saddle will usually result in deeper, more resonant bass, and louder volume overall.

In summary, your pickup quack was solved with the Aura as expected. Neck set will possibly breath new life into the guitar.

Necks, body, and tops move. Many/most acoustic guitars need a neck set after many years. This is a common occurrence. If you aren’t humidifying your guitar, now would also be a good time to look into that.

Cheers
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  #41  
Old 10-20-2017, 02:34 PM
tammuz7000 tammuz7000 is offline
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Glad you took it to someone knowledgeable. I guess if your happy now with the aura then all is well. You can always get a neck reset if the action gets way too high.

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Last edited by tammuz7000; 10-20-2017 at 06:43 PM.
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  #42  
Old 10-23-2017, 12:17 PM
ChapinFan ChapinFan is offline
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Just to put a bow on this... I think MartingitDave summed it up pretty well. And I am content with the Aura solution. I think, considering where I started, I am about at the best place I could have ended up. But I do wonder if I would have been better off with a different solution than the Matrix.

Just as an epilogue, I played a $2000 Larrivée guitar at GC yesterday. It had a Fishman Matrix installed. I plugged it into a Fishman acoustic amp. The quack was still there. I am fully convinced this is a fatal flaw in the technology, not in any one installation.
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  #43  
Old 10-23-2017, 12:28 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChapinFan View Post
Just to put a bow on this... I think MartingitDave summed it up pretty well. And I am content with the Aura solution. I think, considering where I started, I am about at the best place I could have ended up. But I do wonder if I would have been better off with a different solution than the Matrix.

Just as an epilogue, I played a $2000 Larrivée guitar at GC yesterday. It had a Fishman Matrix installed. I plugged it into a Fishman acoustic amp. The quack was still there. I am fully convinced this is a fatal flaw in the technology, not in any one installation.


I'm convinced you need proper EQ to get that quack out. I still have a Matrix in two of my guitars, and with an Empress Para EQ I'm much happier with those guitars. I own an Aura, and I feel the ParaEQ or the Dtar Equinox (no longer made, but still around as used and reasonably priced), is a much better way to go about getting a natural sound with the Matrix. I also own a Fishman PRO-LBX-300 amp which many people feel is one of the best Fishmans ever made, and the Matrix never sounded good with it's onboard EQ.

So good luck with the battle
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  #44  
Old 10-23-2017, 02:45 PM
ChapinFan ChapinFan is offline
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Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
I'm convinced you need proper EQ to get that quack out. I still have a Matrix in two of my guitars, and with an Empress Para EQ I'm much happier with those guitars.
So good luck with the battle
Ha! I've waved the white flag on the battle!

I believe that someone with better EQ skills than I have might be able to fix the quack. But I was never able to... I tried the Mesa Rosette, which has a lot of control. But nothing I did seemed to matter. I could take the highs out, boost the bass, and the quack was lessened -- but at the expense of the nice treble that my guitar has by nature.

You may be able to do it. But, I was not able to.

The Empress Para EQ is somewhat cheaper at about $249. But, it still seems like a lot of work just to get the pickup sounding right, at least to me...
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  #45  
Old 10-23-2017, 07:58 PM
rockabilly69 rockabilly69 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChapinFan View Post
Ha! I've waved the white flag on the battle!

I believe that someone with better EQ skills than I have might be able to fix the quack. But I was never able to... I tried the Mesa Rosette, which has a lot of control. But nothing I did seemed to matter. I could take the highs out, boost the bass, and the quack was lessened -- but at the expense of the nice treble that my guitar has by nature.

You may be able to do it. But, I was not able to.

The Empress Para EQ is somewhat cheaper at about $249. But, it still seems like a lot of work just to get the pickup sounding right, at least to me...
You can't adjust the Q on the Rosette semi-parametric EQ meaning you have to take cuts that are too big to be effective! The Rosette came up short for me for that reason along with the lack of solid low-end compared to my Schertler's Jam 400.
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