High End builders compared to the big three mass builders

[jpbrooks]

I know I will get some responses to this that say "a Martin sounds like a Martin" and a "Collings sounds like a Collings"...apples to oranges and all that.

But, I am curious. I have been playing for 4 years and have finally come to the point where I can tell the difference between makers signature tone and have firmly developed my preferences. I have a 000-18 that I absolutely love.

I go to the few stores around me and play guitars pretty often, but have never been in a store that carries Collings, Huss and Dalton, Bourgeois, ect. and even if I did they are so out of my price range I probably wouldn't bother the shop staff to get one out for me.

I am curious if people have opinions about how the tone of some of these high end smaller builder's guitars compare to the tone of Martin, Taylor, and Gibson since I have played many examples from those. For example the _____ tone is a little brighter than ________, but not as much as _______.

Thanks for indulging my curiosity.

[The Bard Rocks]

Many will differ with me on this, but I find, tonally, the differences between individual guitars are greater than the difference between makers. Meaning, I draw my conclusions based on the particular instrument, not upon the manufacturer.

[H165]

Good question. Brief background: I've been a pro repairman. I am now an amateur builder. I've owned about 250 acoustic flat top guitars, 150 of those pre-1970 Martins, 30 post-1969 Martins. The rest ranging through Taylor, Ovation, Guild, Gibson, early Stahl, Prarie State, Washburn, etc. I like, and own, boutique guitars. But I don't own them because I think they are better; just different, and therefore interesting to me. I find myself over the decades becoming more and more of a Martin fan.

In the '60s, Martin made the only six string flat top guitar that sounded good to me. The Gibsons of that era sounded like furniture. The Guilds were trying to be Martins. I was not into ladder braced guitars back then, so the entire list of those options went right by me other than repairs that came across the bench.

In the '70s, Taylor appeared out of the rough beginnings of the American Dream shop. A friend of mine, Greg Deering, worked in AD, so I visited a few times. It seemed to me AD was trying to enter the market with Martin clones. Along came the two guys who transformed that attempt into Taylor guitars, and we got a new player in the market place. Taylor quickly improved as the CNC-dominated QC king of guitar making. I visited a few times to see what gave Taylors the brighter/bassless (to me more harsh) tone which became their hallmark in the 80s and 90s.

When Taylor began to grab part of the marketplace, Martin payed attention. Chris has stated in interviews that Taylor motivated him to look at production processes and initiate innovations along the lines of Taylor. The 16 series appeared, and I can hear the Taylor influence in the Martin 16s.

Alongside the above developments came the subject of this thread - a few "boutique" makers and Martin modifiers. Starting with Ren Ferguson, Mattingly, Drumheller, Givens, Norwood, Franklin a bit later, even Mike Longworth at the Martin factory, people were starting to look at old guitars and trying to duplicate the construction of the great ones.

Then, the economy really took off. High level guitar repairmen and specialized woodworkers began to see that there might be a market for high quality small-production guitars custom made to certain customer-generated or historically proven specifications. The list got big. Collings, Santa Cruz, Olson, to name a few of many. Eric Schoenberg began asking > Can anyone make me a decent, or at least historically correct, OM?.

Martin was again paying attention. Small makers were all entering the market with Martin style construction using early Martin specs, with quality upgraded to nitpicking standards and individually tweaked to produce great results. They were basically outbuilding Martin, using Martin specs and making individual innovations improving quality and sound, and taking a bite of Martin's market.

Martin responded by saying "hey..good idea". Thus we have the many attempts at restoring the early Martin specs and quality to the Martin production options. The Schoenberg collaboration, the GE, the VS, the MARQUIS, the LE, the Signature models, etc. This all culminated in the A line, which I think equals or outperforms, in sound and playability, every other maker today.

.....How's that for too much information.....

[Photojeep]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

Many will differ with me on this, but I find, tonally, the differences between individual guitars are greater than the difference between makers. Meaning, I draw my conclusions based on the particular instrument, not upon the manufacturer.

I also believe this to be true.

Just yesterday I went in to the acoustic room in my local GC to kill some time and played a Seagull S6, Gibson J-45, 2 different Martins, a Breedlove, and a used Yamaha somethingorother (I still can't remember the model number).

All were new except the Yamaha and yet the $199 Yamaha was the one with the best tone, balance, and projection. I A/B'd every other guitar with that Yamaha and was blown away by the sound coming from that instrument.

I'm really not in the market for another acoustic but that guitar sounded EXCELLENT and far better than any of the others I'd played. And I don't mean, "For it's price" better. I mean, "Better sounding. Period." I may need to own that thing very soon!

I believe it's the instrument in your hands at that moment. It's the sound it makes in your hand at that moment. The name on the headstock doesn't make any sound.

Best,
PJ

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Photojeep

I also believe this to be true.

Just yesterday I went in to the acoustic room in my local GC to kill some time and played a Seagull S6, Gibson J-45, 2 different Martins, a Breedlove, and a used Yamaha somethingorother (I still can't remember the model number).

All were new except the Yamaha and yet the $199 Yamaha was the one with the best tone, balance, and projection. I A/B'd every other guitar with that Yamaha and was blown away by the sound coming from that instrument.

I'm really not in the market for another acoustic but that guitar sounded EXCELLENT and far better than any of the others I'd played. And I don't mean, "For it's price" better. I mean, "Better sounding. Period." I may need to own that thing very soon!

I believe it's the instrument in your hands at that moment. It's the sound it makes in your hand at that moment. The name on the headstock doesn't make any sound.

Best,
PJ

Initially I was going to tell you to get your ears fixed, but then I remembered that $3,300 Martin I had a/b'd with a all laminate Breedlove. The Breedlove kicked its butt.

[RP]

I suppose that the results of some blind playing tests might sorely disappoint some buyers of higher end guitars, be they factory built, boutique, or one-offs. I would insist that, contrary to popular opinion, we do hear with our eyes, at least to a certain extent....

[Cameleye]

I've pretty much been a Martin guy for most of my life and like H165 above, have owned and played many.
However ... I recently bought a Peggy White OM from Dream Guitars that has the finest, most articulate tone I've ever encountered. This Canadian luthier has
opened my eyes to possibilities of tone I hadn't thought possible.

[ManyMartinMan]

Everyone has their preference. Some will say their $300 guitar destroys your, or my, $3,000 guitar. Many people love Taylors, I would likely never buy another. Some like Collings, I do not. I have and appreciate Bourgeois, Martin, Larrivee, Gibsons.......... others will disparage and denigrate all of them. That doesn't mean that any one position is correct or wrong - it's personal preference. These brands, for the most part, really are apples vs. oranges. Your hands, eyes and ears will have to determine which makes and models you prefer. That's part of the fun of experimentation and discovery. Enjoy the ride.

[zombywoof]

The key is to match an instrument with how you approach it. I own Gibsons built in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s. I have a pre-Gibson Epiphone flattop which you could not take out of my hands if you tried. I also own a 1930s Oscar Schmidt concert and jumbo and assorted pre-War Regals and Kay Kraft/Kay guitars. While I own three Harmony Sovereigns I have never found a Taylor I would take home. I have a ton of respect for builders such as Collings, Bourgeois, Walkers, and others. I have played a bunch of their guitars but have never bought one. I do not have a clue as to why although that is a decision I do sometimes question the wisdom of.

[hifivic]

Originally Posted by H165

Good question. Brief background: I've been a pro repairman. I am now an amateur builder. I've owned about 250 acoustic flat top guitars, 150 of those pre-1970 Martins, 30 post-1969 Martins. The rest ranging through Taylor, Ovation, Guild, Gibson, early Stahl, Prarie State, Washburn, etc. I like, and own, boutique guitars. But I don't own them because I think they are better; just different, and therefore interesting to me. I find myself over the decades becoming more and more of a Martin fan.

In the '60s, Martin made the only six string flat top guitar that sounded good to me. The Gibsons of that era sounded like furniture. The Guilds were trying to be Martins. I was not into ladder braced guitars back then, so the entire list of those options went right by me other than repairs that came across the bench.

In the '70s, Taylor appeared out of the rough beginnings of the American Dream shop. A friend of mine, Greg Deering, worked in AD, so I visited a few times. It seemed to me AD was trying to enter the market with Martin clones. Along came the two guys who transformed that attempt into Taylor guitars, and we got a new player in the market place. Taylor quickly improved as the CNC-dominated QC king of guitar making. I visited a few times to see what gave Taylors the brighter/bassless (to me more harsh) tone which became their hallmark in the 80s and 90s.

When Taylor began to grab part of the marketplace, Martin payed attention. Chris has stated in interviews that Taylor motivated him to look at production processes and initiate innovations along the lines of Taylor. The 16 series appeared, and I can hear the Taylor influence in the Martin 16s.

Alongside the above developments came the subject of this thread - a few "boutique" makers and Martin modifiers. Starting with Ren Ferguson, Mattingly, Drumheller, Givens, Norwood, Franklin a bit later, even Mike Longworth at the Martin factory, people were starting to look at old guitars and trying to duplicate the construction of the great ones.

Then, the economy really took off. High level guitar repairmen and specialized woodworkers began to see that there might be a market for high quality small-production guitars custom made to certain customer-generated or historically proven specifications. The list got big. Collings, Santa Cruz, Olson, to name a few of many. Eric Schoenberg began asking > Can anyone make me a decent, or at least historically correct, OM?.

Martin was again paying attention. Small makers were all entering the market with Martin style construction using early Martin specs, with quality upgraded to nitpicking standards and individually tweaked to produce great results. They were basically outbuilding Martin, using Martin specs and making individual innovations improving quality and sound, and taking a bite of Martin's market.

Martin responded by saying "hey..good idea". Thus we have the many attempts at restoring the early Martin specs and quality to the Martin production options. The Schoenberg collaboration, the GE, the VS, the MARQUIS, the LE, the Signature models, etc. This all culminated in the A line, which I think equals or outperforms, in sound and playability, every other maker today.

.....How's that for too much information.....

Excellent and INSIGHTFUL post!!!!!!!!!!

[L20A]

Isn't is great to be living in a time where there are so many wonderful guitars for us to lust over.

I agree that tone is subjective and we will all have a different taste in what we like to hear.

So for those with the money and desire, a custom built high end guitar may be their Holy Grail.
I will never know.

So can we objectively compare the two?

[HHP]

I think you might be looking at it wrong. Trying to compare small shop or individual builder guitars to factory instruments is to miss the point. Small shops and individual builders design and build to an individual vision of what the guitar should sound like and how it should play. They know they do not need to appeal to tens of thousands of buyers, just to the hundreds whose vision of a guitar happens to match theirs.

You go to these guys when you get to a point where you want something a factory doesn't provide. May never come to that but you don't go to them because they sound "like" a Martin, Gibson, Taylor, etc.

[zmf]

Originally Posted by jpbrooks

I go to the few stores around me and play guitars pretty often, but have never been in a store that carries Collings, Huss and Dalton, Bourgeois, ect. and even if I did they are so out of my price range I probably wouldn't bother the shop staff to get one out for me.

There's no end to differences in opinions and preferences on this forum, so if that's what you want, you'll probably get it.

But if you ever do get to a shop that carries the "boutiques", you really do need to bother the staff and play the brands you mention, ideally back-to-back. You might be surprised at how fast you will learn their signature tones -- or at least the type of construction and tones they are shooting for.

Plus it's a heck of a lot of fun!

[H165]

Plus it's a heck of a lot of fun!

This!

[RP]

Originally Posted by HHP

...Small shops and individual builders design and build to an individual vision of what the guitar should sound like and how it should play. They know they do not need to appeal to tens of thousands of buyers, just to the hundreds whose vision of a guitar happens to match theirs....You go to these guys when you get to a point where you want something a factory doesn't provide...

I'm sure you're correct, to an extent; but let's not forget that some boutique and high end builders may also appeal to those with the financial wherewithal and the need to buy certain branded guitars for their collectability and snob appeal. Just look at the number(s) of folks who just had to have a Henderson in the aftermath of the publication of Clapton's Guitar despite having no clue as to what they sounded like and never having visited Rugby, VA....