DAW Metronome vs Time Signature Conundrum

[Trevor B.]

Just wondering how many folks here on the AGF have experienced this little frustration.
Here's the chronology.
I'm a home recording newbie so today I set up a new project in Logic Pro X to experiment with stereo imaging/mic placement for recording solo acoustic guitar. A brief excerpt from my own arrangement of Luis Bonfa's "Manhã de Carnaval" seemed like a good musical choice to work with. So after labelling and record enabling my audio tracks I input the bpm (162), key (Am), and time signature (6/8) into the control bar. However; when I pressed R to start recording the metronome spit out a rapid fire 12 click count-in that made me dizzy. Turns out most DAWs can only work off quarter notes as the bpm measurement. Who knew? Probably a great many more experienced home recordists. Fortunately, I've been a working musician/guitar teacher for my entire adult life (ploughing through the last chapter now) so realized the problem pretty quickly and set the time signature to 6/4 to get the right number of ticks per measure. The other option in this instance was to set the bpm to 54 (beats 1 and 4 pretending to be quarter notes as opposed to dotted quarters). Given the workarounds I realize this is not really a big deal but it sure was annoying at the time. I'd love to hear how others deal, or have dealt with this conundrum.

Trevor

[rick-slo]

I don't use a metronome for recording a tune, so pretty simple for me. You could use a stand alone (not part of the computer DAW) metronome. In recording I leave the DAW (Ableton Live) beat time at it's 120 default (it is inaudible and just sets timing marks on the track in case you want to mess with it (change the tempo) post recording).

[Doug Young]

I just tried this - never tried a click in 6/8, but it seemed to work as expected in Logic 9 for me. I set 6/8 time, 128 bpm, and got an expected 128 clicks per minute. I have things set up for a louder downbeat so I got XxxXxx. Sounded fine. One trick I find for those rare cases when I use a click is that it's easier to play with a decent feel (for me, anyway) if I click less often. I'd probaby count 6/8 in 2 anyway, and I might even drop to 1 click per measure. It just makes the recording seem less mechanical and still keeps you in time. Works for me anyway.

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I just tried this - never tried a click in 6/8, but it seemed to work as expected in Logic 9 for me. I set 6/8 time, 128 bpm, and got an expected 128 clicks per minute. I have things set up for a louder downbeat so I got XxxXxx. Sounded fine. One trick I find for those rare cases when I use a click is that it's easier to play with a decent feel (for me, anyway) if I click less often. I'd probaby count 6/8 in 2 anyway, and I might even drop to 1 click per measure. It just makes the recording seem less mechanical and still keeps you in time. Works for me anyway.

I agree with your point about fewer ticks allowing for greater musicality and a less mechanical feel. That said, in an effort to get really familiar and comfortable with the DAW my starting point was a tick per beat. In non-recording practice situations I always set the metronome to give me just the strong beats especially in triple meters. It does, however; surprise me that you were able to get the right number of ticks to match your bpm in 6/8. After my little episode today I did a search on the Logic Pro Help forum and David Nahmani confirmed my experience (after some persistence by the op of that thread). Here's the link:http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/vi...c.php?p=279342.
I should also add that you and Rick are both examples of the many with more experience than yours truly when it comes to home recording so I really appreciate your comments. Thanks!

[trion12]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I just tried this - never tried a click in 6/8, but it seemed to work as expected in Logic 9 for me. I set 6/8 time, 128 bpm, and got an expected 128 clicks per minute. I have things set up for a louder downbeat so I got XxxXxx. Sounded fine. One trick I find for those rare cases when I use a click is that it's easier to play with a decent feel (for me, anyway) if I click less often. I'd probaby count 6/8 in 2 anyway, and I might even drop to 1 click per measure. It just makes the recording seem less mechanical and still keeps you in time. Works for me anyway.

Fewer clicks definitely makes for a less mechanical feel.
It also forces you to internalise the time better.
I have always practised in 4/4 with the metronome set to tick on beats 2 and 4 only, with identical sounding clicks. So for example if you want to practise at 160bpm set the metronome to 80bpm and practise with the clicks sounding on beats 2 and 4. This also mimics a drummer's high hat which sounds on 2 and 4.

As Doug said, to practise in 6/8 I would set the metronome to sound on beats 1 and 4 or perhaps even just on beat 4.

Aaron

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by trion12

Fewer clicks definitely makes for a less mechanical feel.
It also forces you to internalise the time better.
I have always practised in 4/4 with the metronome set to tick on beats 2 and 4 only, with identical sounding clicks. So for example if you want to practise at 160bpm set the metronome to 80bpm and practise with the clicks sounding on beats 2 and 4. This also mimics a drummer's high hat which sounds on 2 and 4.

As Doug said, to practise in 6/8 I would set the metronome to sound on beats 1 and 4 or perhaps even just on beat 4.

Aaron

I totally agree. However; for over-dubs and multi-tracking it's good to have the metronome reference points.

[Doug Young]

I've actually never known anyone who counted every beat of 6/8. It gets explained as 123456, or 123223, but unless the tune is very slow, 6/8 is nearly always, at least in my experience, counted in 2. In a lot of ways, 6/8 is a notation convenience for writing music where all the notes would be triplets, and usually the individual 8th notes go by too fast. Trying tapping your foot on the 8th notes of even a moderate tempo jig, for example!

In any case, it sounds like maybe Logic X broke something here that works in Logic 9

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I've actually never known anyone who counted every beat of 6/8. It gets explained as 123456, or 123223, but unless the tune is very slow, 6/8 is nearly always, at least in my experience, counted in 2. In a lot of ways, 6/8 is a notation convenience for writing music where all the notes would be triplets, and usually the individual 8th notes go by too fast. Trying tapping your foot on the 8th notes of even a moderate tempo jig, for example!

In any case, it sounds like maybe Logic X broke something here that works in Logic 9

True enough, however; there are many instances (Bach Sicilianas for example) where feeling the sub-divisions precisely is necessary for the dotted sixteenth/thirty-second note figures to be accurately realized. My issue is not the need to count every eighth note but the fact that Logic Pro X, at least, doesn't accommodate eighth notes as a basic time signature measurement. This is a shortcoming regardless of whether one always, rarely or never accounts for the sub-divisions in triple meters. In a broader sense this is a reflection of popular culture and digital technology combining to dumb down the arts, intentional or not!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Trevor B.

True enough, however; there are many instances (Bach Sicilianas for example) where feeling the sub-divisions precisely is necessary for the dotted sixteenth/thirty-second note figures to be accurately realized. My issue is not the need to count every eighth note but the fact that Logic Pro X, at least, doesn't accommodate eighth notes as a basic time signature measurement. This is a shortcoming regardless of whether one always, rarely or never accounts for the sub-divisions in triple meters. In a broader sense this is a reflection of popular culture and digital technology combining to dumb down the arts, intentional or not!

To me, it just sounds like a bug :-) I'd report it, and maybe it will be fixed in Logic 11.

[Trevor B.]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

To me, it just sounds like a bug :-) I'd report it, and maybe it will be fixed in Logic 11.

Sounds like a plan.

[Ty Ford]

Apart from the time signature issue, I'd be really surprised if an external metronome would stay in sync with the internal clock of any DAW. I'd bet there'd be enough creep to make the external metronome invalid against the DAW timeline.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Apart from the time signature issue, I'd be really surprised if an external metronome would stay in sync with the internal clock of any DAW. I'd bet there'd be enough creep to make the external metronome invalid against the DAW timeline.

Regards,

Ty Ford

At the moment I am not following why one would want a metronome ticking away in the DAW (or externally) for recording a solo guitar piece. Regarding an external metronome, for what I was talking about you simple are recording the piece and not twiddling with the DAW default settings at all (nor looking at or hearing a built in metronome). There is not a DAW timeline to be in default with.

[Ty Ford]

they make them with flashing lights as well as ticks.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Doug Young]

Hey Trevor, I finally got my new Mac, in the process of setting it up and got Logic Pro X. I just tried your 6/8, and I must not be understanding what you want - it seems to work perfectly for me. I get a nice 1 2 3 4 5 6 count-off and metronome click. Exactly how I'd expect to count 6/8. You can adjust the notes and loudness of the dotted 8th beat vs the individual beats, and so on. Seems to work exactly as Logic 9 did.

[MikeBmusic]

I hate playing along with the DAW metronome, so instead pick a drum loop (EZ Drummer) close to what I think fits with the song, and just run that loop for the length of the song - even if the end song does nt have any drums at all, it is a way (to answer rick-slo) to ensure that I dont' speed up/slow down during the recording.
If a portion of the song needs a different tempo, I'll record the scratch guitar track to the single starting tempo, go into the song and mark the diferent sections and adjust tempo for them, then go back and re-record to that, muting the original scratch track.