Different top woods; what's the difference?

[lowrider]

Sitka, Adi, Lutz, Redwood, Cedar; how do they differ?

I'm not just throwing this out for discussion, I might be able to order a guitar with these options and I don't have a clue about the difference. The only guitars I've owned; Yamaha, MartinX, Martin Road, Sigma have all been sitka. The nicest sounding guitar I've heard was a redwood over rosewood Wilborn.

Back and side options would be mahogany, rosewood, padauk or wenge.

I'm thinking of bearclaw sitka over mahogany short-scale 000 for an all-arounder and the blues styles that I'm learning.

The only cedar topped guitars guitars I've tried were a couple of Seagulls that just didn't make enough noise.

[stringjunky]

Originally Posted by lowrider

Sitka, Adi, Lutz, Redwood, Cedar; how do they differ?

I'm not just throwing this out for discussion, I might be able to order a guitar with these options and I don't have a clue about the difference. The only guitars I've owned; Yamaha, MartinX, Martin Road, Sigma have all been sitka. The nicest sounding guitar I've heard was a redwood over rosewood Wilborn.

Back and side options would be mahogany, rosewood, padauk or wenge.

I'm thinking of bearclaw sitka over mahogany short-scale 000 for an all-arounder and the blues styles that I'm learning.

The only cedar topped guitars guitars I've tried were a couple of Seagulls that just didn't make enough noise.

Tell your luthier what sound you want and let them pick the right board for you.

[Alan Carruth]

There are two schools of thought on this. One, prevalent on these groups, is that there are pervasive and often large differences between different varieties of top wood, and even between pieces of the same species grown in different places. The claim is that a practiced ear can pick them out quite reliably, and that some are so different that anybody should be able to hear it. This belief is widespread, and even general, among players, and is fostered by some respected makers.

Some of us, a distinct minority, hold that there can be large differences between pieces of wood that will impact the sound, and that there is some correlation between species and properties, such that some species tend on the average, to be a bit denser or stiffer than others. However, the range of variation is so wide that it's not at all difficult to find examples of any species that are close to the extremes on either end of almost any property you care to name. The one broad divide I would allow would be between the 'spruces' as one group (including things like Western Hemlock and Fir), and Western Red cedar and Redwood on the other. The latter group usually has much lower damping than the spruces in general, although once in a while....

The problem is two fold. One part is that people will tend to hear what they expect to hear. If you tell somebody that the top on a particular guitar is the 'magic wood du jour' they will hear it that way. I know of no properly done 'blind' test where listeners or players were able to pick out the species of top wood.

The other pert of the problem is that it's extremely difficult, and may simply be impossible, to deliberately build two guitars that are 'identical', even when you use 'the same' wood. Guitars are so complex, and human hearing is so good at picking out small differences, that local changes in things like grain direction in a top can alter the tone in ways that are very hard to measure and control but seem easy for people to hear. Thus it's not likely that we will ever see the sort of experiment where two guitars with different species of top wood that have been matched for properties and measure out similarly will be compared side by side to find out what difference the species actually makes.

The only other scientifically valid method of determining whether such differences really exist would be to make several hundred instruments, using very good quality control so that they are structurally 'identical', using woods that have had their properties carefully measured. Then you could do multivariate statistical analysis of the results of 'blind' listening and playing tests to find if there really is any attribute that could be assigned to one or another species. A company such as Martin or Taylor could do this, but it would be very expensive and it's not in their interest.

The upshot, then, is that you're going to get a lot of opinion on this, but not much that can be held up as 'fact' IMO. It's not that anybody is actively trying to scam you here; it's just that, as we see in so many things, it's very difficult to get around pervasive beliefs, no matter how well or ill founded. OTOH, since you'll most likely hear what you expect to hear once you've been properly indoctrinated, it won't matter whether it's 'true' in any objective sense anyway.

[redir]

To add a bit more to what Alan said, the differences in top wood species might be more prevalent in factory widget made guitars since they are made to specifications which are the same across the whole range of the particular model or models. A small shop luthier given certain criteria will use various methods to design the guitar to produce tones in any particular class of guitar regardless of the top used or in conjunction with it. So the choice of top wood becomes even less important in the small shop then it does in the factory setting.

I have done the experiment myself many years ago where I built two identical guitars from wood sawn successfully off the same log and while they shared the same tonality expected from that class of guitar they were still very different in tone. That experiment alone was enough for me to question the whole canon regarding the different tone woods.

[lowrider]

Thanks guys, I guess we'll have to talk about it.

[Orfeas]

I am a person that is confused also about the differences of the sound between adi, sitka, Euro/moon/Alpine/, German, Carpathian or whatever spruces. Sometimes I can detect minor sonic properties amongst them and sometimes I don't. It all depends on who made the instrument and how old and played the instrument is. The only difference that I can surelly tell is the sound of spruce, cedar or redwood. You will get lots of details on this from members here.

The only advise that I have for you is to know VERY well what you want from a luthier to make before you pick up your phone. Any luthier will make you an instrument according to what exactly you want and most of the times they deliver instruments that do surpass our expectations! There are amazing luthiers/sponsors in this forum. Reach out to them and happy guitar building!

[Earl49]

As usual, Alan Carruth nailed it in post #3. There is more variation between individual pieces of wood than can be attributed in general to different varieties. Cedar and redwood will be way different than the various flavors of spruce, but beyond that is a large gray area.

asking opinions and gaining knowledge is fine, but Trust Your Luthier and his / her wood stockpile.

[ChalkLitIScream]

Originally Posted by Orfeas

I am a person that is confused also about the differences of the sound between adi, sitka, Euro/moon/Alpine/, German, Carpathian or whatever spruces.!

I've been trying to find out these differences as well for a potential custom build. Specifically I've narrowed mine down to Euro and Englemann.
Using sources such as Somogyi, Bourgeois

[Orfeas]

Originally Posted by ChalkLitIScream

I've been trying to find out these differences as well for a potential custom build. Specifically I've narrowed mine down to Euro and Englemann.
Using sources such as Somogyi, Bourgeois

I attempted that as well and stopped doing it. For more than a year and a half I was auditioning instruments without asking about wood combos and just judge the sound and playability. I was amazed that some builders make woods that I was disliking sound so spectacular. For example, I was a judgy queen that would not touch guitars made with maple B/S. Well, playing a 15 yo jumbo Taylor and a Kostal down the road, I change my perspective real quick.

Point is that an artist (luthier) can make all woods sound crazy good.

[vindibona1]

As they say, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". This holds true in guitar building. So many different recipes. So many different sounds.

Tops? Remember that bracing is important too. Sitka seems to be less stiff than adirondack. So adi will give a tighter sound while sitka will tend to be a bit warmer. Cedar can be bright, (like on the Taylor 714's) but when paired with something like Koa can be very warm. To give an example, the sitka top of a 814ceDLX is the same top as the regular 814ce, but the adi bracing of the DLX makes it tighter sounding than the regular 814ce.

While I think it's cool to have a guitar custom built to specifications, I think it's important to have a template in mind from an existing guitar...otherwise you're ordering a box of chocolates, if you get my drift.

[lowrider]

''While I think it's cool to have a guitar custom built to specifications, I think it's important to have a template in mind from an existing guitar...otherwise you're ordering a box of chocolates, if you get my drift.''

Yes, I don't want to be ordering a little of this and a little of that and end up with just mediocre.

[rokdog49]

Tell the luthier what voicing your looking for.
There will be more than one way to "skin the cat."

[mercy]

Ive owned a ton of guitars and in my experience the top woods sound like the class they are in, not as much the back woods. Saying that Cedar can sound the same as Adirondack is not correct. Ive had guitars built by different builders and the guitars with the same top woods sound the same and they sound different than different top woods.
If youre building a custom youd better know what wood produces what sound and then its up to the builder to reach its potential. You may think you like the sound of Euro tops but it can be great or a dud. The most important thing in a guitar is the builder and the parts.

[printer2]

Well cedar and red spruce are at two different ends of the spectrum. Next door neighbors density-wise are more the same. I do have a couple of pieces of cedar that are denser that most of my spruce. I might make a neck out of it.

[jim1960]

You can read up on an abundance of woods on this page: Tonewood Data Source