Which mic and pre-amp to go with K&K Mini?!?

karlitofingers · #1 02-11-2013, 07:13 PM

Hello peoples,

I've started a couple of threads before about pre-amps and the like but I'm still undecided on what to get.

I finally came across a guitar (a friends) that had a mic and an under-saddle piezo fitted, before this I wasn't sure what the mic would add to the sound of my percussive playing (I'm playing fingers style stuff where hitting the upper bout is happening a lot!), but now I know I definately want to fit one!

So any ideas what I should get given that I already have the K&K Mini in there (which sounds great on it's own).

The easiest choice would be to get the K&K Trinity upgrade, I'm fairly certain this would do the job for me as I only want to play on my own and small venues. I'm decided that even with the controls on the inside it would be ok for me and that maybe I can do without the phase switch.

All suggestions are welcome!

Cheers,

Karl.

ljguitar · #2 02-11-2013, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlitofingers

...The easiest choice would be to get the K&K Trinity upgrade, I'm fairly certain this would do the job for me as I only want to play on my own and small venues. I'm decided that even with the controls on the inside it would be ok for me and that maybe I can do without the phase switch...

Hi Karl...
That's how my first guitar became K&K dual source outfitted. I had a luthier friend add a K&K mic to my Pure Western Mini (it comes pre-wired to add it) and I use external preamps. Now, all four of my acoustics have K&K dual source rigs in them (all passive).

I own and use 3 different Dual Source Preamps…

DTAR Solstice - the best of mine and by far favorite with sound techs
Raven PMB - nearly as good as the DTAR just missing a few features (and not available anymore)
K&K Trinity belt pack - my backup. Good solid tone, missing quite a few features. Labels are on top of unit, and cannot be read from the front or back (which is why mine is self-labeled)

Features…

All 4 of these have 3 way tone…
The Trinity belt pack lacks ground lift, polarity reverse, and XLR in or out. You also have to break into the case to adjust tone and gain.
The Quantum (K&K's big preamp) has no XLR in, no ground lift, and is 40% more expensive than the DTAR Solstice with far less features. Unless they have changed the design, all labels are on the top edge and not on the faceplate, and the channels are side by side not one above the other. Troublesome form factor.
The DTAR has dual input or TRS cable in (single cable), switchable phantom, switchable phase, ground lift and 1/4'' or XLR out (simultaneously)
The Raven doesn't have XLR input, but does have all the other amenities, plus it can be battery powered (two 9 volt batteries).

Top - K&K Trinity belt pack, Middle - Raven PMB I, Bottom - DTAR Solstice

The Raven and DTAR both equal or slightly exceed the K&K Quantum for tone, and far outshine it for connective features.

Here is how I altered my K&K belt pack to break in quickly...called Blue Painter's tape. The adjustment tool is velcroed (by K&K) to the inside of the case. I tossed the belt clip and case screw.

Hope this helps...

localguitarist · #3 02-12-2013, 12:32 AM

Another happy K&K artist here. I use the trinity but I have pure western minis and their UST. not been thrilled to death with the UST I use it sparingly and in band settings. My third source is their meridian mic. It's external which is a pain to set up each time, but the sound micing outside a guitar as opposed to inside...worth it. Heck I could go with just that but the trinity gives it a little extra warmth. Is a pretty lethal combo. I'm considering what goes in my new Breedlove revival dread right now. I may try this passive K&K set up everyone's been talking about.

karlitofingers · #4 02-12-2013, 02:31 PM

Thank you both for your suggestions!

Weighing up the facts that I'm in the UK, don't want to spend too much, and the the gigs I'll be playing are very small, I think upgrading to the K&K Trinity system is looking like the best candidate. If it's not for me I can get rid of the preamp and try something else, it won't be the end of the world. I also have a DI that I can go into after the Trinity preamp if need be, I don't need the XLR out.

I've also just noticed they have a new website and a new looking preamp - http://kksound.com/products/trinitypreamp.php

Any idea if the Trinity Pre can be used with two sources not including the mic i.e. the K&K mini and a Piezo via a 2x mono to stereo cable? (I know this is a bit weird but it would be nice to have this functionality if I'm not using the mic)

I'll be finding out if the any suppliers over here can get the new looking K&K box.

Karl.

ljguitar · #5 02-12-2013, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlitofingers

...I've also just noticed they have a new website and a new looking preamp - http://kksound.com/products/trinitypreamp.php

Hi kf...

You can ask them, but it looks just like the old one with a newly designed label.

karlitofingers · #6 02-12-2013, 04:49 PM

Yeah the supplier I'm speaking with says that they've changed the logo but not the spec.

Think I'm going for it anyway, will be ordering the trinity upgrade. Hope it sounds great! I'll be sure to let you know how it goes!

Karl.

ljguitar · #7 02-12-2013, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlitofingers

Think I'm going for it anyway, will be ordering the trinity upgrade. Hope it sounds great! I'll be sure to let you know how it goes!

Hi karl...

I own that preamp and it sounds and works fine. You have to open it up to adjust it, and it takes a screw-driver like tool (which K&K conveniently velcros to the inside of the case) and in the pictures above, it's the one on top of the stack of preamps.

It's one shortcoming is no XLR output to provide balanced output to a house PA system. Of course the simple solution is to take the output from the guitar and go through a passive direct box first, and send 1/4'' to the guitar amp and XLR to the PA.

The inside looks like this. I removed both the belt clip and case screw for easier access to tone controls, battery, and gain. I put painter's blue masking tape down both seams to get into it.

I carry this as my backup to my other preamps, and it travels in my Voyage Air backpack as my primary preamp for it when we travel in the RV. I also have a small passive direct box to plug it into other systems.

Here's a picture of both my Trinity preamp and Rolls DI box next to my ParaDI preamp so you can see how small it really is. Very handy little rig.

karlitofingers · #8 02-12-2013, 09:22 PM

Thanks for the great pics!

Might be a silly question, but would an active DI be ok to use on the way to the desk? Just wondering as you mentioned a 'passive' one.

I have the Behringer Ultra-G GI100

I think I'll just set the preamp as best I can for the few places I'll be playing and get the sound guy to adjust on the fly if needed. Plus using it as you do with the tape during a sound check isn't a massive problem.

Karl.

ljguitar · #9 02-12-2013, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlitofingers

Thanks for the great pics!

Might be a silly question, but would an active DI be ok to use on the way to the desk? Just wondering as you mentioned a 'passive' one.

I have the Behringer Ultra-G GI100

I think I'll just set the preamp as best I can for the few places I'll be playing and get the sound guy to adjust on the fly if needed. Plus using it as you do with the tape during a sound check isn't a massive problem.

Karl.

Hi Karl...
Active ones are fine and the Behringer G is primarily designed for Electric guitar. However you don't have to engage the speaker simulators, and it works fine as a normal direct box.

We actually like the Behringer powered DI boxes. They have another capability - to plug in a speaker lead (up to 3000Watts) and convert it to a signal which can be sent to the desk.

They are also built like tanks and we've propped up and aimed many a floor monitor with one of them.

karlitofingers · #10 02-13-2013, 08:03 AM

Yeah I like these DI boxes too, they're a little on the big side but I got this one for my home studio a while ago.

It will also provide an option for me when I'm playing my electric in my musical theatre band, I can try turning on the cab simulator and send that to the desk rather than having to have separate patches programed with my multi effect amp sims.

I'm yet to explore the extra feature you have mentioned that involves the speaker cable, and to be honest I'm not sure I fully understand why it's useful or how to use it, care to enlighten me?!

Karl.

karlitofingers · #11 02-15-2013, 02:48 PM

Ok so I installed the Trinity upgrade today, first impressions are very good.

The mic is doing exactly what I wanted it to do which was to pickup percussion played on the body and add the 'air' and 'sparkle' that the Mini transducer sometimes lacks.

I've only tried it with a small keyboard amp so far and even through that it sounds amazing.

My guitar, a Crafter GAE8/n, is a decent sounding cheap guitar but the Trinity is able to get the best sound possible from the guitar.

I'll need to experiment with the gain and EQ but so far it's been pretty easy to get a good sound, just lowered the mids on the transducers and the bass and mids on the mic. I boosted the high on both the mic and the transducers.

Feel free to let me know what settings you guys are using.

I actually stuck the mic to the block that's underneath the end of the fingerboard, it allows me to put the mic facing directly at the strings as in K&K's instructions, parallel with the strings and pointing just about anywhere i need. The neck block in my guitar seems to be a little further away from the sound hole than I'd have liked for sticking the mic there.

Anyone know the positions least prone to feedback?

Karl

ljguitar · #12 02-15-2013, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlitofingers

...yet to explore the extra feature you have mentioned that involves the speaker cable, and to be honest I'm not sure I fully understand why it's useful or how to use it, care to enlighten me?!

Hi Karl...

Useless feature for an acoustic guitarist. However, I've had electric amps where the stage was so small we could not mic the cabinet & there was no 'line-out- on the amp, so we just pulled a speaker out signal from the amp and ran through the GI and pulled an XLR signal to reinforce the amp with the PA mains.

That has not always been possible to do without a Hughes & Kettner Red Box Pro (ancient but handy DI).

You will never face that with your acoustic rig.

ljguitar · #13 02-15-2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlitofingers

...Anyone know the positions least prone to feedback?

Hi Karl...

K&K's position for mics is really the best one. I moved it all over the inside when I first got it (in 2005) but I didn't believe it would work where they said. Well, after I finally put it where they say, it works and sounds great.

Feedback control is more stage arrangement and common sense than mic position or volume. I never have a wedge with my guitar in it directly in front of me. I always work with a stage amp behind me about waist high, and 4-5 feet behind.

If the venue has a monitor and cannot turn my guitar off in the monitor, then I move the monitor behind me and to my left so my body blocks the sound getting to the lower bout of the guitar.

I always have a feedback buster along (black rubber plug) and actually have only had to use it twice in the past several years.

Hope this helps...

karlitofingers · #14 02-15-2013, 04:36 PM

Helps a lot!

Do you think the feedback buster affects the mic in any way? Obviously it's going to affect the sound it picks up, but will it cause problems with phase? I'd hope that it would still pickup the percussion adequately.

Karl.

el_kabong · #15 02-15-2013, 05:34 PM

Larry:

Your clear (and consistently helpful) praise of the trinity system has (very nearly) got me convinced. I'm sure this has been covered in another recent thread, but could you add a few comments here in this conversation on your thoughts about the following preamps for K&K generally and the trinity more specifically:

1. the Radial PZ-pre compared to your DTAR and
2. also, your Para-DI, notably when best to use it...portability, etc.?

Thanks and cheers, Scott