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Old 01-21-2018, 03:17 PM
RedfoxRambler RedfoxRambler is offline
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Default Trying to get a unique gritty old time mountain music sound on a budget

Hi all, I'm new to this forum so go easy on me

I've been playing "Carter scratch" style guitar for several years and I'm finally trying to put together a unique (maybe strange?) one-man-band setup to play out. I'll be sitting over top of an 18" kick drum while also playing guitar, singing, and whistling. I mostly do old time standards (Carter Family, Dock Boggs, Clarence Ashley, Roscoe Holcomb) but I write some as well.

I want to play an archtop partially for the look, but I also love the sound of the late 20s Carter Family records. However I don't have tons of $$ to spend on an old L5. I want to use this KK Sound pickup, and ideally run it through a Sansamp Para Driver and into an Ampeg PF-20t tube bass head and PF-115HE cab (I already have all that stuff). I want to get warm, deep, thick sound, but also gritty and slightly aggressive (i.e. a little overdriven).

I recently picked up this SS Stewart guitar hoping that it'd be a budget solution, but I've been wrestling with playability issues that I'm ill-equipped to fix and I don't want to sink hundreds into it (original bridge had buzzing on high strings, bought replacement but after sanding as much as possible the action is still too high for anywhere close to decent action and intonation). My question is this: can you recommend an archtop that would have the right sound for what I'm going for that would ideally be less than $1,000? If that's not possible, then at least less than $1,500? I'm open to buying a new guitar even though I'd really rather be playing something from the 20s-50s if possible. Thank you!
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Old 01-21-2018, 04:34 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedfoxRambler View Post
...I want to get warm, deep, thick sound, but also gritty and slightly aggressive...can you recommend an archtop that would have the right sound for what I'm going for that would ideally be less than $1,000?
Welcome to the forum...

I obviously don't have your guitar in hand, nor do I have good photos of the heel joint, but based on your description of the playability issues, the remedial measures you've already taken, the seller's comments, and what I can glean from the available pics, you're unquestionably in need of a neck reset - a common problem with older entry-level archtops subjected to the ravages of New Brunswick (NJ) Black Diamond strings over several decades. BTW you're right about not sinking big bucks into repairs: the reset job will cost you at least half again what you paid for the guitar in the first place, and there are some other issues I see in the pics (nut replacement, fret leveling or partial/total refret) that will push the total tab into the range of what you'd pay for a brand-new instrument; in the grand scheme it's your ultimate decision to make, but if I were in your shoes I'd either try to find a way to get my money back - or leave this dude some serious negative feedback (FWIW he knew exactly what he had and what the problems were - and speaking from 55 years of experience he gave himself away at several places in his description)...

Fortunately, there are more archtop instruments available on the market at present then at any time in the last 60 years, at a variety of price points, so finding a new instrument to get you out-there-and-playing won't be too difficult; a couple questions:
  • Are you locked into a prewar visual aesthetic?
  • Are you locked into using the K&K pickup?
If you're after the modern-day equivalent of that S.S. Stewart - or its Harmony/Kay counterparts - I'd recommend the acoustic Godin 5th Avenue at $500-550 street price. Built by the same folks who produce the better-known Seagull line, it's a serviceable, good-sounding, easy-playing entry-level piece that'll give you a warmer, thicker unplugged tone than many other 16" archtops when set up with appropriate strings (unless you're going to play Gypsy jazz exclusively ditch the factory 12's); it's also proof positive that a laminated top is not as detrimental to tone as it would be with a similar flattop instrument - I own one, as do several other regulars on the Archtop subforum, and while it's not a prewar Gibson Super 400 or Epiphone Emperor it'll give you plenty of archtop "bark" when properly set up...

If you're looking for some additional plugged-in edge and grit, ~$100 more will get you the Godin Kingpin, a single P-90 non-cut in the mold of the early ES-125. With the right strings these can be set up as dual-purpose guitars - many in-the-trenches club players in the postwar era used similar instruments as their one-and-only - and you should have no problem overdriving the front end of any tube amp with that dogear PU...

If it's gotta be a carved-top - and I think we can agree that there are certain tonal advantages when they're done right - the Loar LH-600 is a fairly accurate repro of an early-30's "Mother Maybelle" Gibson 16" archtop for around $1K (the LH-700 is an almost dead-on copy of a late-20's L-5 - but that one's $1500); be aware, though, that it's period-correct in almost every detail - including the thick, cheeky, deep-V 1-3/4" neck - so you'll need to decide if that combination is right for your needs. There have also been some QC issues in regard to the neck geometry - extremely important with any archtop guitar - so you might want to take this into consideration...

Finally, there's the Epiphone Masterbilt collection which, while they capture most of the visuals of early/mid-30's Epi archtops, are neither fish nor fowl structurally/tonally. Supposedly directed at flattop players looking for a Jazz Age vibe IME they embody the least-endearing characteristics of each, lacking both the extended frequency response of a flattop and the midrange punch and "bark" of an archtop; add to the equation a quasi-30's "Louisville Slugger" neck profile (which FYI never appeared on any genuine New York Epi I've ever played over the last five decades) and insufficient cosmetic accuracy to appeal to the vintage aficionado, and you've got what amounts IMO to an answer for which there really is no question. Seems I'm not the only one who feels this way - I was informed by one dealer that sales have fallen far short of expectations (in spite of the overt pretensions to a David Rawlings connection), and that a rethink/redesign along the lines of the successful Eastman lineup (think carved tops/backs), with more period-correct trim (very easy to put into production, as they already use many of the key features on other instruments in their line), may in fact be in the works. That said, rumors are rumors, and the very reasons I don't like them are precisely why some folks around here have bought them; as with anything else YMMV - but speaking for myself I'm waiting this one out in favor of a possible sub-$2K '41 Deluxe reissue...

Hope this helps...
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Last edited by Steve DeRosa; 01-21-2018 at 07:55 PM. Reason: additional info
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Old 01-21-2018, 11:12 PM
RedfoxRambler RedfoxRambler is offline
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Extremely helpful! I definitely appreciate it. Couple of quick thoughts...

I'm a little worried that a P90 type pickup wouldn't retain much of the acoustic sound and would sound much more like a typical electric guitar. I really want this to retain the natural sound of an acoustic, just with a bit of grit. I may not be completely tied to the KK pickup, but I did quite a bit of research and it seemed to be the best for retaining the natural sound and was fairly affordable. I'm open to suggestions on anything though!

I found a Loar LH-500 on reverb for $650 shipped with a Kent Armstrong pickup, strongly considering that one. I hadn't really considered the Epiphone Masterbilt reissues but I'll definitely be cautious now. I may try to find a guitar center that has several options in stock to be able to actually hear them but unfortunately I live about 3 hours from any of them. I may end up just having to sell the SS Stewart, the return period may be passed..
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:59 AM
RedfoxRambler RedfoxRambler is offline
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So I reckon my two followup questions are:

1) Should I be thinking of a different pickup than the K&K Definity? Different preamp than the Sansamp ParaDriver I already have?

2) Is there any harm in going with a Loar LH-500 instead of a 600 or 700? The only info I could find suggests the LH-500 was their first high end model and was replaced by the 700, and that "the difference is the 700 is carved top with nitro finish. The 500 is pressed top poly finish" taken from this very brief thread
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Old 01-22-2018, 07:43 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedfoxRambler View Post
So I reckon my two followup questions are:

1) Should I be thinking of a different pickup than the K&K Definity? Different preamp than the Sansamp ParaDriver I already have?

2) Is there any harm in going with a Loar LH-500 instead of a 600 or 700? The only info I could find suggests the LH-500 was their first high end model and was replaced by the 700, and that the difference is the 700 is carved top with nitro finish. The 500 is pressed top poly finish...
In order:
  • No problem with the K&K - bandmate installed the flattop version in his inexpensive parlor guitar and it sounds amazing - but I think you might get closer to the results you're after with a dual-source system, where you can blend/mix a magnetic pickup for grit and drive and use the K&K for your "acoustic" tone; here's a link to a sample from the K&K website, using an Ibanez Artcore with a suspended humbucker:

    http://www.kksound.com/mp3/definity_artcore.mp3

  • DO NOT - not no way, not nohow, not never, uh-uh, negatory, out of the question, run-don't-walk, thumbs-down - under any circumstances buy a used Loar archtop unless you have extensive experience with archtop guitars, as well as access to a luthier who really knows what he/she is doing when it comes to these puppies and can properly evaluate/repair your potential purchase. While they can be excellent-sounding/playing instruments if you get a good one - I A/B'd a first-run LH-700 against a genuine late-20's L-5 at MandoBros years ago, and while the period-correct neck was a deal-breaker for me I'd love to hear it in about 85 years or so - you're going to be kissing a lot of frogs until you find your princess. As far as construction is concerned you're right about the poly vs. nitro finish, but the LH-500 did in fact have a carved top paired with laminated sides/back; if you're looking for a comparable instrument in the current lineup the LH-300 would be the closest match, as the replacement LH-600 (not 700) model is full-solid throughout. Personally, I was unimpressed with the two LH-300's I've played - like the similar Gretsch New Yorker the solid top doesn't really offer any tonal benefits (as expected in this price range FYI), and the aforementioned neck geometry issues are far more likely to occur in an entry-level instrument than the company flagship...
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:39 PM
RedfoxRambler RedfoxRambler is offline
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Hmmm, that is a very strong anti-used Loar sentiment! Unfortunately I don't think my budget would allow me to get a new one at this time, it seems like only the LH-700 and LH-300 are offered new anymore and I'd rather steer away from the lower end LH-300. I was thinking about driving a couple hours to Columbus OH to check out this used LH-600 (even though I'd much rather have sunburst than black). Are you still 100% against used Loar even if it seems to check out pretty well in person?
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Old 01-23-2018, 04:24 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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FYI new LH-600's are available, although I think Loar may be in the process of discontinuing them since a number of former big-name dealers no longer carry them; that said, I found you a few brand-new ones for sale:

https://www.amazon.com/Loar-LH-600-V.../dp/B001VIL892
https://www.theloarstore.com/product...archtop-guitar
http://www.djangobooks.com/Item/the-loar-lh-600-vs
https://www.truetonemusic.com/produc...ntage-sunburst
https://www.interstatemusic.com/9202...t-LH600VS.aspx

FYI Djangobooks is having a 10%-off sale as we speak, which may bring things into a more affordable price range, as well as lots of experience with both new and vintage archtop guitars so you're probably less likely to get a dud; in view of my caveat above (personally, I'd be wary of a mainstream instrument from Music-Go-Round, much less something like the black Loar you cite - BTW they come with a case as standard, so IMO there's something going on here... ) I'd either wait it out and save my bucks, or go with a new Godin 5th Avenue (acoustic or electric, your choice) and possibly step up to a vintage Gibson L-48/L-50 or New York-made Epiphone Zenith/Blackstone/Spartan (highly undervalued/underappreciated in today's market, and an absolute steal in a first-tier American-made vintage instrument by any reckoning) in the future...
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Old 01-23-2018, 10:47 PM
Prof_Stack Prof_Stack is offline
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I'm new to the archtop game, and just picked up a used Godin Kingpin P90. It's decent as an acoustic instrument with bronze strings, but it currently has flatwounds on it. The price was right. Mine was ~$500 at GC. The Kingpin 2 (two pickups and cutaway body) I see on CL here for around $600.

Recently I played some older acoustic archtops from the 50's to 70's. Most had neck issues, but for $400 to $600 you could pick up an older archtop (Kay, Harmony, Silvertone, etc.) and easily put a floating pickup on it if you don't want to cut into the top. These are pretty much all laminated, but I discovered that they sound great after 40+ years. Less feedback, too, maybe. There is something very cool about the older archtops.

The Loar - I was very interested in them, too, but am glad I backed away. DjangoBooks told me that the Lohr is very troublesome with QC issues for the ones they order for customers. I played two used ones locally and neither was worth considering. DjangoBooks much prefers the Eastman models, which seem to have a good following. Both of these are Chinese made, which may or may not be a factor for you.

Have fun and post some pictures of your "one man band"!

Last edited by Prof_Stack; 01-24-2018 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:13 AM
RedfoxRambler RedfoxRambler is offline
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Once again I'm very grateful for the knowledge shared. I've been hunting around, and it's incredibly difficult to find anywhere in a 250 mile radius of here that has anything worth trying out. Besides newer Epiphone Masterbilts (found this one used a few hours away), I've only found this potentially overpriced 30s Gibson rebrand, and it's 4 hours away. If you think it's worth $1,000+ and if they're willing to come down a bit I may make the drive to check it out, otherwise I'm tempted to just try my luck with the $600 used Masterbilt that's 3 hrs away..
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Old 01-24-2018, 01:24 PM
Dadzmad Dadzmad is offline
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I've got a single P90 Godin Kingpin and it seems to do the rootsy stuff really well. Don't worry about the PU degrading the unplugged sound, just go to a heavier string. I use Martin Retros and they work both plugged in and not (you may need to adjust the PU to balance the output of the monels).

I had also looked at vintage Harmony, Kay, etc. guitars and found that time had taken it's toll on most of them. The Kingpin is a good option for getting a new specimen of a 1950's everyman's plywood arch top.

By the way I can report that the neck P90 sounds great through a tube amp with an Eminence 1518.
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Old 01-24-2018, 03:38 PM
Prof_Stack Prof_Stack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedfoxRambler View Post
Once again I'm very grateful for the knowledge shared. I've been hunting around, and it's incredibly difficult to find anywhere in a 250 mile radius of here that has anything worth trying out. Besides newer Epiphone Masterbilts (found this one used a few hours away), I've only found this potentially overpriced 30s Gibson rebrand, and it's 4 hours away. If you think it's worth $1,000+ and if they're willing to come down a bit I may make the drive to check it out, otherwise I'm tempted to just try my luck with the $600 used Masterbilt that's 3 hrs away..
I played a new Masterbilt Epiphone at a GC last month and was totally underwhelmed at the acoustic output. Check out Reverb for something around that price point. But, if you offer GC something less than $600, they'll consider it, I'm sure.

Edit: I played a different Masterbilt (Deluxe?) than this one. It has internal p/u with 9-volt battery, I think.

Last edited by Prof_Stack; 01-24-2018 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 01-25-2018, 07:33 AM
RedfoxRambler RedfoxRambler is offline
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I've also found this interesting piece a few hours away, can't find any info about Grinnells as a quick search only pulls up the same guitar when it was sold a couple years ago. Seems to be the closest thing in my price range and travel radius I've seen so far...
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Old 01-25-2018, 03:29 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Grinnell Brothers was a Detroit-based firm established in 1872 and remaining in business through the late-20th century:

http://historicdetroit.org/building/...s-music-house/

According to Mike Longworth Martin also made some proprietary models for them under the Wolverine name (most likely before 1930 TMK); by the time this one was made they probably switched over to Gibson as they were able to provide both flattops and archtops (although Martin did produce the C-/F-/R-Series archtops, they were generally not well-regarded then or now). Size-wise it corresponds to Gibson's period L-30/L-37 models (as well at the prewar ES-100/ES-125), and if the truss rod is in fact original (the Philips-head retaining screws are not, BTW) it's virtually unheard-of in a contract instrument; that said, one has to wonder why the present owner is unloading it for substantially less than the original purchase price - and why the first seller fitted it with what appears to be a an Asian-made TOM-type bridge (total tone-killer FYI) when a proper wooden one could be had from StewMac for around $20. IMO you've got another dog here - I dare say there are other issues I can't discern from the pics - and quite frankly I wouldn't waste my time/energy/gas money even giving it a second look...
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Old 01-26-2018, 09:40 AM
gmr gmr is offline
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It does not sound like you are looking for the jazz comping archtop tone but for more of a Mother Maybelle sort of sound with the ability to add in some grit through an amp perhaps? Given that, there are robably a handful of current models that would suit just fine. The Godin Fifth Avenue is one. You could add in a pickup of some sort or get the Kingpin version with the p90. I don’t care for the bulky mount of their p90 but that is just aesthetic. There is also the Gretsch 9555. Very vintage look, decent sound and I think it could work nicely for your intended need. I had one of the Epiphone Olympic Masterbilt guitars for a while. I really liked it and thought it had a cool midrangey sound that fit Americana style finger picking quite well, I thought. I actually liked the neck.... very chunky for sure. I needed to downsize my guitar inventory so I let that one go. The guy I was working with plugged it into a big tube amp. I could not believe how good that little guitar sounded... big, bold, and jazzy. Had I hung on to that guitar I would have replaced the bridge with a rosewood bridge and experimented with a soundboard pickup from jjb or k and k. Maybe it was just the amp. And certainly the store clerk that I was working with had some serious skill as a player, but it gave me second thoughts about selling it. It never sounded like that through my little THR acoustic amp! Anyway, if you can, play as many as you can find, both new and old.
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Old 01-26-2018, 09:59 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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That's a lot of technology required to sound like a hillbilly from the early 30's playing a $15 guitar. LOL
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