Do vintage acoustics eventually deteriorate tonally?

mikedanton · #1 02-19-2011, 01:21 PM

I understand that every old guitar will eventually become a bit fragile to withstand the rigors of heavy handed players, but do quality vintage guitars eventually lose their tone?

I was speaking to a salesman today who advised against buying anything pre 50's for this very reason. He was trying to sell me a 60's Martin at the time

Mike.

RustyAxe · #2 02-19-2011, 01:25 PM

There's no reason, other than neglectful care and maintenance, for a vintage guitar to be structurally unsound or to lose tone. Pre-war Martins are among the most sought after guitars in the world ... for their tone.

HHP · #3 02-19-2011, 01:26 PM

They will be prone to more frequent problems but I wouldn't think they will be any more fragile than they were when built. Starting out today, a '34 D-28 in mint condition and a new D-28 Authentic should have the same degree of reliability. Guitars from the 50's and 60's are generally more heavily built compared to 30's and 40's versions. A 50's D-28 is probably more heavily built than today's HD-28.

cc132 · #4 02-19-2011, 01:35 PM

If they do, they haven't been around long enough for us to find out yet.

If other stringed instruments are any indication, then no.

jayhawk · #5 02-19-2011, 01:55 PM

If left alone, yes given time they will deteriorate. A piece of furniture, setting in the corner will eventually deteriorate if for no other reason than the glue gives out. It is not under the stress that an instrument is. Bridges pull up, necks change angles, braces come loose. All of these are a function of stress over time. This precludes any issues because of damage.

I have seen some discussion that implies that 100 years might be lifespan of a steel string guitar just due to the strength of the wood to stress of the strings. I can't speak to that.

I would say that if a guitar is cared for and has regular maintenance by a skilled luthier, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't have a life time that would span 10's of owners. The older they get the more care they would require.

Jack

Jeff M · #6 02-19-2011, 02:07 PM

Eventually, everything detiorates.
I can't recall ever coming across an acoustic guitar that has done this..but then I haven't owned any guitar continuously for over 75 years...and if I had, I probably wouldn't be able to recall what it sounded like when I first got it.

Chazmo · #7 02-19-2011, 03:18 PM

Mike,

I'm not aware of any reason why a guitar couldn't survive indefinitely with proper care. Classical instruments have survived multiple centuries...

I have heard that cedar loses some punch as it's used a lot. Something tells me this is bunk though.

Jeff M · #8 02-19-2011, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazmo

...

I have heard that cedar loses some punch as it's used a lot. ..

Kind of like the Loch Ness monster.

You will come across lots of folks who have heard the same thing...but I can't recall ever coming across anybody who has personally experienced it.
You will come across lots and lots of folks who say they haven't.
I sure haven't noticed it on my cedar topped guitars.

Chazmo · #9 02-19-2011, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff M

You will come across lots of folks who have heard the same thing...but I can't recall ever coming across anybody who has experienced it while you will come across lots and lots of folks who say they haven't.
I sure haven't noticed it on my cedar topped guitars.

I only grant that it's possible, Jeff. As soundboard woods go, I think cedar is pretty soft... whether that's a factor or not, I have no idea.

My guess, actually, is that folks who have played cedar for a while and then play spruce may just be speaking about the comparison. I dunno...

Chazmo · #10 02-19-2011, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikedanton

[ ... ] I was speaking to a salesman today who advised against buying anything pre 50's for this very reason. He was trying to sell me a 60's Martin at the time

Mike.

I meant to mention that this whole conversation just sounds like a Guitar Center ploy to put Mike in a '60s Martin.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Jeff M · #11 02-19-2011, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazmo

I only grant that it's possible, Jeff. As soundboard woods go, I think cedar is pretty soft... whether that's a factor or not, I have no idea.

My guess, actually, is that folks who have played cedar for a while and then play spruce may just be speaking about the comparison. I dunno...

Not picking on you at all. Just noting that this topic comes up fairly routinely on the guitar forums and is, in my experience, routinely debunked by the experience of players and builders alike.
Yet it persists.

Wade Hampton · #12 02-19-2011, 03:39 PM

Yes, old and/or heavily played steel string acoustic instruments can in fact wear out if they get played hard enough and for many, many thousands of hours, and, yes, this can affect the tone.

I'm not talking about normal replacement items like nuts, saddles, tuning gears, frets or even fretboards, all of which can and will wear out and need to be replaced after years of normal heavy playing. It's the tone itself I'm referring to.

The good news is that even that can be addressed and restored by replacing the braces underneath the top.

Years ago on RMMGA we had this discussion, where the question of "wood fatigue" came up. There was the usual range of opinions, with those of us who've made our livings at playing music saying "Yes, it can happen," and amateur players saying, in effect: "You're crazy, I've been playing guitar for forty seven years now and never even heard of such a thing!"

And the highly respected guitar builder Kathy Wingert chimed in and said: "Yes, guitars can wear out, but I've found that if you replace the braces that they can be brought back to life."

And she's right. I had an instrument I thought I'd worn out, but had kept for sentimental reasons. I talked to Scott Baxendale, of the Colfax Guitar Shop in Denver, who agreed with Kathy's opinion and said: "Sure, i can fix that for you." He pulled off the back, replaced the braces and the fretboard for me, all for a reasonable sum, and the instrument was in fact returned to full playability. It sounds great and I still play it quite a bit, though I don't gig out with it as I once did.

So, short version: yes, you can drive a guitar's top so hard for so long that it will seem to lose most of its tone, but replacing the braces will give it a new lease of life.

Hope that makes sense.

Wade Hampton Miller

Chazmo · #13 02-19-2011, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff M

Not picking on you at all. Just noting that this topic comes up fairly routinely on the guitar forums and is, in my experience, routinely debunked by the experience of players and builders alike.
Yet it persists.

Hehe... well, you'll never hear it from me again. I thought it was bunk to begin with.

Jeff M · #14 02-19-2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazmo

Hehe... well, you'll never hear it from me again. I thought it was bunk to begin with.

Like Wayne, I've heard from builders that when a guitar "wears out" it's not the top but the braces, and replacing them can bring the guitar back to life.
That's the braces though......

jackcooper · #15 02-19-2011, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

Yes, old and/or heavily played steel string acoustic instruments can in fact wear out if they get played hard enough and for many, many thousands of hours, and, yes, this can affect the tone.

I'm not talking about normal replacement items like nuts, saddles, tuning gears, frets or even fretboards, all of which can and will wear out and need to be replaced after years of normal heavy playing. It's the tone itself I'm referring to.

The good news is that even that can be addressed and restored by replacing the braces underneath the top.

Years ago on RMMGA we had this discussion, where the question of "wood fatigue" came up. There was the usual range of opinions, with those of us who've made our livings at playing music saying "Yes, it can happen," and amateur players saying, in effect: "You're crazy, I've been playing guitar for forty seven years now and never even heard of such a thing!"

And the highly respected guitar builder Kathy Wingert chimed in and said: "Yes, guitars can wear out, but I've found that if you replace the braces that they can be brought back to life."

And she's right. I had an instrument I thought I'd worn out, but had kept for sentimental reasons. I talked to Scott Baxendale, of the Colfax Guitar Shop in Denver, who agreed with Kathy's opinion and said: "Sure, i can fix that for you." He pulled off the back, replaced the braces and the fretboard for me, all for a reasonable sum, and the instrument was in fact returned to full playability. It sounds great and I still play it quite a bit, though I don't gig out with it as I once did.

So, short version: yes, you can drive a guitar's top so hard for so long that it will seem to lose most of its tone, but replacing the braces will give it a new lease of life.

Hope that makes sense.

Wade Hampton Miller

Thanks for adding your experience to the discussion Wade. I'm considering a great sounding 50's J-45 at the moment (my first vintage guitar). I'll know what to consider if it starts sounding worse 20 years down the line.