Any way to simulate a live gig?

[PJ10]

I own a Fishman SA 220, which is designed to be used as your monitor as well as your PA. I had been feeling good about the way things were sounding ahead of my gig last week, then the sound of the people in the bar threw me off. We had to keep turning up the PA and it sounded so distorted because it was right behind me. I hated it and it got in my head and because of that I turned a bit timid, which was apparent when I was performing.

In a way I’m asking if there is any way to simulate that atmosphere so I can practice that way. Also maybe there is a monitor that is compatible with the PA so I can put that out front and don’t have to worry about it.

As always any input is appreciated.

[Andy Howell]

I recognise that! Turning up the PA is understandable but it never beats the noise at the bar!

[Groovekings]

I'm in a duo and we often play loud pubs. I have a meter on my phone and these crowds can be in excess of 100 db, which is really loud. You can't win that battle because if you turn up they talk louder.

Better strategy is be just loud enough for the first 30 feet. After that your volume will drop off but if they want it louder they can move up. People will sort themselves out as to how loud they want it by where they end up sitting. We use in ear monitors so that helps as well. We are always hearing things the same way at the same volume no matter what. Great eR protection too - you don't want to expose your ears to 100 db for very long. Good luck !

[necrome]

As far as I know, it is near-impossible to simulate a live performance scenario when it comes to sound (unless you hire a whole bunch of extras to fill seats?!). A lot of professional performers I've caught in the last few years have problems with that too and they've been on the road for decades with their dedicated sound crew.

What we can generally do is guesstimate how a place will sound like before sound check and how it'll sound like once the place fills up. I've had performances where I sounded amazing and loud during sound check and was completely inaudible when the people came in even with the volume all the way up. How I try to minimise such failings is to use a volume meter on my phone to reference the decibel level I want during rehearsals, and make sure there's headroom to up it by about 5db to compensate for the dampening of clothes and people. It doesn't always work depending on the venue but generally does. You can download such apps for free on both Android and iOS

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by PJ10

I own a Fishman SA 220, which is designed to be used as your monitor as well as your PA. I had been feeling good about the way things were sounding ahead of my gig last week, then the sound of the people in the bar threw me off. We had to keep turning up the PA and it sounded so distorted because it was right behind me. I hated it and it got in my head and because of that I turned a bit timid, which was apparent when I was performing.

In a way I’m asking if there is any way to simulate that atmosphere so I can practice that way. Also maybe there is a monitor that is compatible with the PA so I can put that out front and don’t have to worry about it.

As always any input is appreciated.

Was this your first time playing in a noisy bar? If so, it does get easier. I don't personally ever remember it bothering me as I feel less tense when the bar is noisy, but with practice it will get easier.

Although I don't think the suggestion is to just keep getting louder, it does sound as though your personal PA system isn't really working for that type of bar. I find those personal PA's are fine if you are playing to a fairly quiet pub but get some people talking and they get lost. Maybe look into something else?

One thing I do before any show is hook up my gear through my mixer and eq my guitars and get a rough level on my instruments as well as my mics. This has been made easier since my Touchmix remembers everything. Although I still have to adjust once I get there, I find that a bit of tweaking at home makes it a lot easier to do live. It's as if I started in a good place and just had to make some small tweaks instead of doing it all at the show.

[El Conquistador]

This is a gig I have once a month. It is a sonic nightmare with people talking all around me. Every surface is reflective. But, as you can see, my SA220 is right behind me and yet, I am smiling. How do I do it?

First: Understand that each venue is unique in its EQ requirements. The SA220 has high, mid, and low eq. Use them. It also has a notch filter and phase reverse, USE THEM.

Second: The secret sauce for me is a RedEye D.I. It has one control named "High". When I first sit down with the place half full, I run that control at about 12:00. However, as the masses gather and starts getting really loud, I begin to crank that control up toward 1:00, then 2:00 etc. This allows me to cut through the noise without turning up the volume.

I played there last Saturday night and the place was packed. I always tell the people sitting closest to me to tell me if I get too loud. On this evening, my wife and a couple of friends were sitting across the room as far away from me as possible. The people sitting a foot away from me never complained (and gave me a nice tip) and my wife and friends told me they could hear me perfectly well.

Hope this helps,
Steve

[Bob Womack]

1. Plug into your P.A. and play.
2. Have your best friend sit with his back to you and ignore you.
3. Have him yell "Freebird!!!"
4. Have him stumble over drunk and demand to play your guitar.
5. Have him throw up beery puke into your guitar's sound hole, with the beer removing part of the finish around the sound hole.
6. Keep your cool.

Done!

Bob

[martingitdave]

Play quieter. They will either talk softer, or won't hear you, and you save your ears. Either way you win.

[PJ10]

Whether you offer serious answers, or funny ones, you guys never disappoint! More often than not, you guys talk me off the ledge.

[PJ10]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

This is a gig I have once a month. It is a sonic nightmare with people talking all around me. Every surface is reflective. But, as you can see, my SA220 is right behind me and yet, I am smiling. How do I do it?

First: Understand that each venue is unique in its EQ requirements. The SA220 has high, mid, and low eq. Use them. It also has a notch filter and phase reverse, USE THEM.

Second: The secret sauce for me is a RedEye D.I. It has one control named "High". When I first sit down with the place half full, I run that control at about 12:00. However, as the masses gather and starts getting really loud, I begin to crank that control up toward 1:00, then 2:00 etc. This allows me to cut through the noise without turning up the volume.

I played there last Saturday night and the place was packed. I always tell the people sitting closest to me to tell me if I get too loud. On this evening, my wife and a couple of friends were sitting across the room as far away from me as possible. The people sitting a foot away from me never complained (and gave me a nice tip) and my wife and friends told me they could hear me perfectly well.

Hope this helps,
Steve

OK, a couple of questions. Are you singing, because I don't see a mic. I'm guessing if I was that close to my SA with the mic and the volume that loud, I'd get great amounts of feedback.

Also, (and this is going to sound so, so dumb), but what am I looking for with EQ? Yes, if the bass sounds overbearing, turn it down. If it sounds bright, turn up the low. But any other tricks? What, exactly, do the mids do? And of course I can hear things through the guitar, but I don't have A CLUE how to set my EQs on my voice, because, well, I sing covers and they come in all sorts of ranges, from high to low.

Then, what is a RedEye D.I.? I went down and looked at my SA, and didn't see anything like that (sorry for the dumb questions). I did, however, see the phase button. What does that do? Never pushed it.

[PJ10]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Was this your first time playing in a noisy bar? If so, it does get easier. I don't personally ever remember it bothering me as I feel less tense when the bar is noisy, but with practice it will get easier.

Although I don't think the suggestion is to just keep getting louder, it does sound as though your personal PA system isn't really working for that type of bar. I find those personal PA's are fine if you are playing to a fairly quiet pub but get some people talking and they get lost. Maybe look into something else?

One thing I do before any show is hook up my gear through my mixer and eq my guitars and get a rough level on my instruments as well as my mics. This has been made easier since my Touchmix remembers everything. Although I still have to adjust once I get there, I find that a bit of tweaking at home makes it a lot easier to do live. It's as if I started in a good place and just had to make some small tweaks instead of doing it all at the show.

In years past, we had a powered mixer, two passive speakers and a passive monitor between us that fed the sound back to us. We had the sound on the monitor the way we wanted, so yeah, maybe a personal PA just isn't for me. I guess it can't be for everyone.

[PJ10]

Originally Posted by Groovekings

I'm in a duo and we often play loud pubs. I have a meter on my phone and these crowds can be in excess of 100 db, which is really loud. You can't win that battle because if you turn up they talk louder.

Better strategy is be just loud enough for the first 30 feet. After that your volume will drop off but if they want it louder they can move up. People will sort themselves out as to how loud they want it by where they end up sitting. We use in ear monitors so that helps as well. We are always hearing things the same way at the same volume no matter what. Great eR protection too - you don't want to expose your ears to 100 db for very long. Good luck !

I'd be interested in knowing what kind of ear monitors you use, and wonder if they are compatible with my Fishman.

[Groovekings]

We use Shure SE215 in ear monitors. They block much of the room noise and you always hear everything perfectly in your own studio-like environment. To use these with any PA system you need either a headphone out or line / aux out from your mixer. In the case of the SA220 there is both.

You would run a cable out of the Fishman to a small portable headphone amplifier that will accommodate multiple sets of headphones. The Art pro 4 or 5 will do the trick or Behringer etc. You will also need a 20 ft headphone extension cable to run from the head amp to your phones. This describes a wired system but you can also do it wirelessly but at increased cost. The wired system would cost about :

Phones $90 per set
Head amp about $40
Ext cable about $15

Pretty cheap solution

Cheers !

[Kalani]

No way to really simulate it--- just heed the great advice given by your fellow AGFers and keep getting out there like you're doing and experience it.

Bass and reverb tends to muddy up your sound indoors so be aware. The bass settings on my vocal and guitar channels are rarely at 12:00, especially playing indoors---usually around 9:00 or 10:00 with the highs turned up a bit. Generally the more mids you remove, the farther away (and weaker) you'll sound so try not to remove too much. Also, as the room fills, I find myself using less and less reverb. This, along with adding highs will add to the intelligibility of your vocals and help it cut thru the crowd. If the sound is too bright, turn down the highs instead of turning up the lows.

Your sound will usually be better with the phase button in or out so try both. Keep the Notch in the off position (fully counterclockwise?) unless you start experiencing feedback. In that case, start turning the knob slowly clockwise until you hear the feedback diminish sufficiently. You are essentially finding the offending frequency and "notching" it out.

The Red Eye is a DI box; you can kinda see it in the picture near the visible leg of the Fishman in El Conquistador's pic---it's a little black box with a red knob on the floor. It goes between your guitar and the Fishman. You should definitely start reading about eq, feedback---phase and notch filters, DI's, etc...as you'll greatly benefit from knowing how to use these tools and it's essential to getting great sound.

You have to be careful with a monitor on the floor in a tight spot as people (especially drunk ones) could trip over it.

Hope this helps!

[Nymuso]

The crowd noise will always be there, you simply have to get used to it. Establish a strong, full presence with your PA, but do not try to drown out the crowd. If they want to talk and you make that impossible, they'll simply go someplace else where they can. Your job is to keep them here.

Also, set up your PA and practice in a place that has the reflective surfaces of your venue(s), as most of them do. Try to elicit sonic problems and decide how you will combat them, eq, phase reversal, speaker placement and the like. Setting up in your carpeted living room does not help in this regard.