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Old 12-13-2017, 10:21 AM
Reasley Reasley is offline
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Default Making Songs Your Own

I am sitting here listening to acoustic covers on YouTube after concluding yet another semester and just listened to noledog's (Eric) cover of John Denver's "Rocky Mountain High."

I LOVE IT.

Eric is very talented at guitar and his intro to this song is just great and I like the tempo of his cover of the song and the way he generally does it.

So, I looked over at the woman that I'm dating and said "This is a FANTASTIC cover" and she gave me a dirty look and said "No."

Note that she is a HUGE John Denver fan and, when she hears a John Denver cover, she wants "carbon copy" -- or as close as one can get.

And, I "get it."

I am a huge James Taylor fan (Hey, I am a male baby boomer guitarist so that goes without saying, right?) and I cringe when I hear someone STRUMMING straight chords to JT's songs. Nails on blackboard.

So, I ask those who have been gigging for quite some time: how do you balance the carbon copy/self-interpretation dichotomy or do you just do what you want to do and figure that the audience is never going to like your music 100% song-by-song but the more important thing is to "do well" in total?

Noledog's version of John Denver's "Rocky Mountain High:"

https://youtu.be/d5DUI8eFjp0
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Old 12-13-2017, 11:03 AM
Howard Emerson Howard Emerson is offline
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Richard,
I write at least 95% of what I record/perform.

The few ‘covers’ I do have my stamp/mitts all over them.

If I have nothing new to say....

Want to hear the original? Play the record.

HE
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Old 12-13-2017, 11:10 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Hi Reasley,

When I learn someone else's song, I learn it their way, at least at the beginning. When I learn someone else's song, one of the things I want is to learn from them.

The trouble is, at least for me, is that I have been playing long enough and have developed enough of my own singing and playing style that even when I intend to make a carbon copy of someone else's song, after a while, the song sounds more like me than it sounds like the original artist. I don't necessarily do it on purpose; it just happens.

A good example... Someone suggested I learn "The Highwayman". Of the versions I found on YouTube, I liked Glen Campbell's version and intended to play it like he did. Here is Glen Campbell's live version:

After just a day if immersion on this song, probably 8 hours of playing this and being taken over by this song, this is what I ended up recording:


You can certainly recognize that this is "The Highwayman" but it doesn't sound very much like a Glen Campbell carbon copy, at least to me. Again, I was not intending to create something different, this is just what came out when I let the song take control of me.

Regarding Eric's version of Rocky Mountain High, I liked it. My version of Rocky Mountain High sounds somewhat closer to John Denver's, but mine's not a carbon copy, either. Mine sounds closer because I always liked the flat picking at the front end of the song and I wanted to do that.

When it comes to James Taylor songs, I love his playing style, and so I tend to emulate his playing as much as possible. But while I like his voice to listen to, I have never tried to emulate his singing style. It has been his songs and his playing that have turned me on over the years. His voice, for me, is not one of his big selling points. So, when I sing a JT song, my playing has a JT flavor but I don't think that my singing particularly does.

The lesson I have learned over the years is that you are never going to appeal to everyone. You have to be yourself. The truth is, most of us are not all that interesting to other people, but even so, trying to be someone else just does not work very well.

So my approach to doing covers is to adapt to someone else's song as best I can while continuing to hold onto my own personality. I tried the other approach -- to make music that I thought other people wanted to hear -- and I wasn't all that happy with the result. I'm much happier just being whoever I am, even if I will never be famous. Fame is over rated, anyway.

In my opinion, the only reason to do a carbon copy of someone else's song is to prove that you are a good enough player and singer to pull it off. This is what I did when I was younger and first learning. But after you have proven to yourself that you can do this, I found that it's rather unrewarding. I would rather be myself.

I do covers because I want to play good songs. I used to write my own songs, and still do occasionally, but I found out that writing really good songs is hard, hard work. I don't want to work that hard now. But I still want to learn new music, so doing covers is a way to get what I want without so much hard work.

My two cents, anyway...

- Glenn
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:53 AM
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In the John Denver/Rocky Mountain High example above, it makes you wonder if the OP’s girlfriend would have had a different reaction if it had been John Denver performing Noledog’s arrangement. We human beings are fickle creatures. When we really like an artist and his work, we can tend to not give a different arrangement/artist a fair listen. I was that way with the Beatles!
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:08 AM
Nymuso Nymuso is offline
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Tear it down to bear bones and rebuild it to suit your voice, style, ability and taste. Anyone who wants to hear a Xerox copy of the original can find it YouTube, Pandora or where ever.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:50 AM
Reasley Reasley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennwillow View Post
Hi Reasley,

When I learn someone else's song, I learn it their way, at least at the beginning. When I learn someone else's song, one of the things I want is to learn from them.

The trouble is, at least for me, is that I have been playing long enough and have developed enough of my own singing and playing style that even when I intend to make a carbon copy of someone else's song, after a while, the song sounds more like me than it sounds like the original artist. I don't necessarily do it on purpose; it just happens.

A good example... Someone suggested I learn "The Highwayman". Of the versions I found on YouTube, I liked Glen Campbell's version and intended to play it like he did. Here is Glen Campbell's live version:

After just a day if immersion on this song, probably 8 hours of playing this and being taken over by this song, this is what I ended up recording:


You can certainly recognize that this is "The Highwayman" but it doesn't sound very much like a Glen Campbell carbon copy, at least to me. Again, I was not intending to create something different, this is just what came out when I let the song take control of me.

Regarding Eric's version of Rocky Mountain High, I liked it. My version of Rocky Mountain High sounds somewhat closer to John Denver's, but mine's not a carbon copy, either. Mine sounds closer because I always liked the flat picking at the front end of the song and I wanted to do that.

When it comes to James Taylor songs, I love his playing style, and so I tend to emulate his playing as much as possible. But while I like his voice to listen to, I have never tried to emulate his singing style. It has been his songs and his playing that have turned me on over the years. His voice, for me, is not one of his big selling points. So, when I sing a JT song, my playing has a JT flavor but I don't think that my singing particularly does.

The lesson I have learned over the years is that you are never going to appeal to everyone. You have to be yourself. The truth is, most of us are not all that interesting to other people, but even so, trying to be someone else just does not work very well.

So my approach to doing covers is to adapt to someone else's song as best I can while continuing to hold onto my own personality. I tried the other approach -- to make music that I thought other people wanted to hear -- and I wasn't all that happy with the result. I'm much happier just being whoever I am, even if I will never be famous. Fame is over rated, anyway.

In my opinion, the only reason to do a carbon copy of someone else's song is to prove that you are a good enough player and singer to pull it off. This is what I did when I was younger and first learning. But after you have proven to yourself that you can do this, I found that it's rather unrewarding. I would rather be myself.

I do covers because I want to play good songs. I used to write my own songs, and still do occasionally, but I found out that writing really good songs is hard, hard work. I don't want to work that hard now. But I still want to learn new music, so doing covers is a way to get what I want without so much hard work.

My two cents, anyway...

- Glenn
Wow, Glenn --

Thank you, my friend. Thank you. Your thoughtful, thorough, and incredibly helpful reply absolutely and completely answered my question. And, I learned some things in the process. Exactly what on-line forums are all about. Again, many thanks.

Richard
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:58 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Originally Posted by Reasley View Post
Wow, Glenn --

Thank you, my friend. Thank you. Your thoughtful, thorough, and incredibly helpful reply absolutely and completely answered my question. And, I learned some things in the process. Exactly what on-line forums are all about. Again, many thanks.

Richard
You're welcome Richard.

Show & Tell, actually, is a good place for your question and discussion because we have videos to illustrate our points. I think it brings more meaning and clarity to the discussion.

I also liked Howard Emerson's response, above. Because I know Howard's music so well, I know what he means. He has been around on the forum considerably longer than I have and he has been in the music business a long time, too. I found that his response makes a great deal of sense to me.

Thanks,
Glenn
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Old 12-14-2017, 10:00 AM
Reasley Reasley is offline
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One clarification to my OP for all who read this thread:

I was not referring to the original singer's *singing* -- which I agree shouldn't be duplicated (because it can't be usually), I was talking about tempo/style or whatever you might call it -- which is what Eric changed in "Rocky Mountain High."

As good as Eric's (our AGF friend) cover is to me, the worst cover (again, to me) is a cover of one of the most popular rock songs in history by none other than the original artist and I am talking about "Layla" sung by Eric Clapton:

1) Layla, the original version. One of the most easily recognizable riffs in rock music history. Just a great song musically. One of my all-time favorite rock songs. But -- I do HATE what the song is about: "George (Harrison), you're a great friend but I want your wife Patty."

2) Layla, the acoustic version. To me, nails on chalkboard. I cringe everytime I hear it. If it's on the radio, I turn it off.

If the acoustic version had become a hit BEFORE the electric version, I may have liked it OK. But as it is, "no," just "no."
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Old 12-14-2017, 10:09 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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I think there are times when changing the arrangement around quite drastically, just as Eric did on Rocky Mountain High, makes complete sense. I'm not even bothered by Eric Clapton's rearrangement of Layla for acoustic guitar. At least I could finally understand the words.

Some people are flexible, some people are not. Some people are open minded, some people are not. I think a lot of this is simply about personality, and some of it is about musical background. The more background a person has, I think, the more open they are to musical experiments.

- Glenn
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Old 12-14-2017, 10:36 AM
Reasley Reasley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennwillow View Post
I think there are times when changing the arrangement around quite drastically, just as Eric did on Rocky Mountain High, makes complete sense. I'm not even bothered by Eric Clapton's rearrangement of Layla for acoustic guitar. At least I could finally understand the words.

Some people are flexible, some people are not. Some people are open minded, some people are not. I think a lot of this is simply about personality, and some of it is about musical background. The more background a person has, I think, the more open they are to musical experiments.

- Glenn
I'm as open minded as the next guy but you don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit in the wind, you don't pull the mask off the 'ol Lone Ranger, and you don't mess around with . . . LAYLA!!! LOL
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Old 12-14-2017, 12:21 PM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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I'm as open minded as the next guy but you don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit in the wind, you don't pull the mask off the 'ol Lone Ranger, and you don't mess around with . . . LAYLA!!! LOL
Yes, fair enough!!!

I must admit that the first time I heard Eric Clapton play Layla acoustically, I thought, ... Oh No! What has he done!! ... And I'm pretty sure a lot of people had a similar reaction, or worse. It grew on me after a while, though.

Still, the electric guitar part on the original Layla, regardless of what the song was about, was so appealing, I think it's only natural for those of us who like the sound of a well played electric guitar to be a little appalled that he was now abandoning that sound. But then, with the acoustic guitar, there would have been no way to get that sound. If it had been me, I would have left the acoustic version of the song out of the show. Really.

- glenn
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Old 12-14-2017, 03:12 PM
jaymarsch jaymarsch is offline
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I think that it depends on the audience. If I am performing at a venue and playing my own songs as well, I will do a cover with my own spin on it. If I am playing at a nursing home and I know that they may sing along with the covers that they love to hear, I will stick to the original. Like so much else in life - it just depends...

Best,
Jayne
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Old 12-14-2017, 03:41 PM
reeve21 reeve21 is offline
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I'm usually fine with folks re-arranging pop songs to fit their style, the audience, etc. In jazz that is pretty much the expectation, copying someone else is frowned upon. And to stretch the analogy a bit, by the time a novel is made into a movie and/or play the author's work has been highly modified.

So I've got no problem with either version of Layla. I like them both. Folks expected to hear the tune, and he obviously couldn't recreate its original style in that setting.

BUT, I'm a big Dylan fan, and it did pain me to hear the way he performed some of his tunes in concert (this was quite a while ago). I like to be able to recognize the song before it is almost over!
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:24 AM
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You guys should check out Larry Carlton’s instrumental version of Layla. It’s my favorite.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:41 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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You guys should check out Larry Carlton’s instrumental version of Layla. It’s my favorite.
Cool, Bob!

I just looked it up.



I don't why I have never heard this before, but I am glad that you brought this up. Very cool rendition from Larry Carlton!

- Glenn
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