Help me shop please!

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Methos1979

Jim - you're KILLING me with all the talk about the Emeralds! I'm still waiting on the first of the two customs I've got coming!!

To the OP - I have no personal experience with them but for tone and volume another consideration is the Kevin Michael Sable by McPhereson guitars. Although those would nearly double your price range.

Another opinion on 12 vs. 14 fret - the Rainsong Shorty I had was a 12 fret neck on a 14 fret type body with a cutaway so it really seemed to have the best of both worlds. Extreme comfort and an intimate feel ergonomically but with the tone, volume and fret access of a guitar more like a 000.

I'm excited for you: TWO Customs!! How cool is that?!

[Christopher Cozad]

Thank you for posting the video. I had not heard that one, and it was fun to listen to.

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

...Is refretting a rainsong problematic? I know it'll be a long time before it needs it, but if/when it comes down to it - is it the typical $250-$350 (nickel) $350-$500 (stainless) affair?

It is (should be) the same. I just re-fretted my old RainSong WS-1000 (I let it go waaaaay too long, as I was fearful of tackling a carbon fiber fretboard). Here is a link to a short pictorial article on my experience:

Refretting a RainSong

[kramster]

Fun reading all this stuff...I really like it. Wonder what my next one will be.. and not a another banjo... unless...

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by 121

I gathered this info from the manufactures websites,
hopefully it helps comparing size.

While the specs provided by Rainsong are spot on, both the Taylor and Emerald specs are off. Taylors GA body is actually an 1/8" smaller, both in depth and length than what is posted above, and of course they've all come with a 1 3/4" nut as standard for the last few decades. As to the x20 posted, the sample I have here has a body that is 19 1/2" long, (not 19") and just shy of 5" deep at the deepest part of the body. And while the Rainsong and Taylor taper down to 4" and 3 1/2" respectively at the neck joint, splitting the size difference in the middle of the body, the Emerald actually bulges to it's nearly 5" depth at middle of the back, thanks to it's arched back construction.

What does this mean to the OP? It means that the Taylor GA, Rainsong WS, and the Emerald x20 are all about the same size as the Composite Acoustics GX he tried, and 1/4" here o there wont change that.

[AZLiberty]

One note of caution re Rainsongs: Some folks really do not like the 20" fretboard radius.

I do like a flatter board, and my main guitars are my Rainsong Shorty and Larrivee OM-03R, which has a 17-21" compound neck.

If the OP struggles with flatter necks (his Taylor would be 15") then he might not like Rainsongs and might be better off with an Emerald (16") or CA.

Otherwise, with that Caviat, my first recommendation would be to look at one of the Hybrid Rainsongs in the Windsong (WS) body style.

[rmsstrider]

As many have already mentioned, Ted at LA Guitar has probably played every CF guitar out there. he will not steer you wrong.
As for your original post and The Composite Acoustic GX. I found that particular model very appealing both sound wise and for playability. However , if you were not comfortable with the neck, then maybe it is not for you. So many good choices out there. Not many used to choose from. I have not played an Emerald X20 Opus, but it is on my short list and the price is in your ballpark.

[HodgdonExtreme]

I really appreciate all the feedback y'all have provided so far. I'm definitely going to need to get my hands on a few more of these to make a decision.

Based on what I've seen and read so far though, I think I'm most interested in a Rainsong WS or DR. At the moment, I'm leaning more towards the DR because I'm just a Dred guy. Regarding the Rainsongs, I'm really, really curious how I'll perceive the difference between the hybrid, the woven top, and the unidirectional top. I really like the rosette and fret inlays on the unidirectional "CO" series models.

The replies here helped me form search queries to find a lot more stuff to read. It sounds like most people get interested in CF on account of stability and durability, and then wind up in love with everything about CF guitars.

Really excited!

[mot]

I'm late to the spending HE's money party, but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents. You can't go wrong with a Rainsong. I almost got one with those little fish on it and probably would have if there had been one in a store close by at the time. I ended up having only the option of mail ordering a carbon fiber if I wanted to try one and Alistair (Emerald guitars) was the first one to respond to my queries of all the carbon fiber manufacturers and dealers. He answered all my questions and he thought that I would like the (newly revamped at the time - late 2013) X20. I wasn't too keen on the shape, as I was then thinking more traditional with a center hole but I only intended the guitar to tide me over until I got the guitar of my dreams later and he offered me a fantastic deal on it. Well this standard Opus X20 has ended up being the closest thing to the guitar of my dreams that I have had the pleasure to play and is the only guitar I have that I would look to replace if for some reason I broke it or lost it.

I really like the Rainsongs and CAs, but haven't been able to justify getting one. I like the Blackbirds too and absolutely love the little Lucky 13 as it is so fun to play that I actually ended up getting one of those too. I brought the Lucky 13 to my office a week or so ago and have had a few otherwise respectable humans frothing at the mouth over it, so I have kept it there to see how long this interest lasts.

I was pretty worried about ordering unseen/untouched, but now I don't think I would get anything except some variation of a carbon fiber guitar if I get anymore acoustic guitars in the future. For example, I haven't played a Journey or other carbon fiber manufacturer yet, but I might just get one sooner than later (probably again without first playing one) once I have sufficient reason and sufficient funds.

The ones I have played are that good and I love the consistency and suspect that it applies to all carbon fiber guitars. I am not going to say you will stop playing your Taylor completely, but that's quite possible. Just ask Jim.

[Earl49]

I still play my various Taylor's -- in fact I played my old 414ce for 90 minutes last night, and enjoyed every moment with that fine guitar. But I find myself reaching for either the WS-1000 or the Lucky 13 about 85% of the time, especially if I am leaving the house for a jam. And it's not just a honeymoon phase. The Rainsong has been with me since 2001 and the Lucky 13 since October of last year.

If somehow (God forbid) every guitar disappeared from my house tomorrow, only the carbon fiber guitars would get replaced.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by HodgdonExtreme

I really appreciate all the feedback y'all have provided so far. I'm definitely going to need to get my hands on a few more of these to make a decision.

Based on what I've seen and read so far though, I think I'm most interested in a Rainsong WS or DR. At the moment, I'm leaning more towards the DR because I'm just a Dred guy. Regarding the Rainsongs, I'm really, really curious how I'll perceive the difference between the hybrid, the woven top, and the unidirectional top. I really like the rosette and fret inlays on the unidirectional "CO" series models.

The replies here helped me form search queries to find a lot more stuff to read. It sounds like most people get interested in CF on account of stability and durability, and then wind up in love with everything about CF guitars.

Really excited!

You're on the right track, Hodgdon! My two current favorites are a Blackbird Savoy, which is smaller than what I would recommend to you for now, and my Rainsong BI-DR1100NS, which is a 12-fret short scale dreadnought with the Black Ice top, and no electronics. It's the cover guitar for our Rainsong Landing Page. The photo was taken a few years back in Malibu. Helene and I just finished lunch, and decided hang out on the beach for a while. The Rainsong happened to be in the back of the SUV, so we decided to play some music. The Seagulls didn't seem to mind.



BTW, I sent you a message.

[email4eric]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

To clarify, the Rainsong OM is similar in size to the Taylor Grand Concert (GC) while the Emerald x20 is much bigger, about the size of the Taylor Grand Auditorium (GA), so about the same size and feel as the CA GX the OP tried, and the Rainsong WS models.

Hi Hodgdon, welcome the cf section.

Regarding 12-fret vs 14-fret as it relates to Rainsong, you can definitely ask in General abut the differences, but you should limit the conversation to Taylor, because Rainsong approaches 12-fret design exactly the same way, in that unlike Martin who uses a totally different body with totally different voicing for 12-fret models, Rainsong and Taylor 12-fret models use standard body shapes with a different neck. To do this the bridge is positioned closer to the center of the soundboard, which many luthiers consider the "sweet spot" so you not only and up with a guitar that feels more intimate, but that is a bit more responsive, with a rounder, warmer voice.

Rainsongs new CH models start at $1299 MAP, and go up to $1600 depending on electronics, so they are an amazing value, especially from a US builder. Given your size criteria, either the OM (Taylor GC size), or WS(Taylor GA size) models should work for you. Rainsong has several hundred SKU's using a combination of three different materials, and five different body sizes, and all are available in 12, or 14-fret versions, so there are lots of options.

Composite Acoustics is also large US builder, they use only one type of carbon fiber, with four different body shapes, including the GX Grand auditorium you tried.

Besides the two larger builders, we have Blackbird, a company that is all about tone. They build ukuleles, travel guitars, as well as 0, 00, OM, and Jumbo size guitars in carbon fiber, and Ekoa which produces a tone that is as close to a high end wood guitar as you can get, without buying a high end wood guitar.

We also carry Journey, a brand made in China by and American business man who lives there, and while currently thy specialize in travel guitars, their RT660 is about the size of the Taylor GS Mini, which is close to a grand concert size. The RT 660 uses a fully contoured back, a Manser Wedge design body, and has a built in arm bevel so it feels as small a 3/4 size travel guitar, but the voice is anything but small. It maybe a bit too small for what you're looking for, but worth a look.

As with wood guitars, there are tonal options galore. Rainsongs tend to favor the Taylor voice, CA voicing leans towards Martin, although with less clarity, Blackbird went to high end boutique brands like Collings and Lowden for tonal inspiration, while others are quite content to let the carbon voice come through.

As you can see, there are some great options. BTW, if you wanted to stay close to the feel, and tone of your Taylor 810, than look no further than the Rainsong H-DR1100N2, which is right at your target price point, or the CO-DR1100N2 which will run you about $500 or so more. Both of these models are also available in OM, and WS models.

I'll leave you with this for now, but feel free to reach out to me with any questions.

I follow this sub-forum regularly though I've not yet delved-into the CF world...yet. Barriers are availability to try instruments and information.

In all of that time, I've not found a more singularly useful post than this one from Ted.

That was an amazingly succinct analysis clearly derived from your immense closeness and knowledge with this subset of acoustic guitars!

Kudos, Ted. I've always greatly appreciated your posts!

[Frettingflyer]

I just thought I would add my two cents here being that I do also play primarily fingerstyle with flesh only. If I could keep only 1 CF guitar right now it would be the Rainsong, no contest. I am still in the honeymoon phase with the Lucky and it would be a close 2nd.
The Emerald has an amazing voice, and if I was primarily a strummer that would change things. It also has awesome harmonics that ring forever. However, and my opinion clashes with many here, it would be the 1st CF to go. I find myself having to really work too hard to get the volume from it( usually traveling and no amp) that it really affects the way I play. I am trying to pluck so much harder for the same response I may get from my RS or Lucky that my fingers get tense and it goes downhill. Then I adjust to the instrument and just accept the lower output, and it is great, but pretty quiet, again, played only with flesh. I grab my pick and it is a whole other experience and I see what everyone raves about. Just my experience, and the Emerald is a well built quality guitar with a great voice.
As to the 12fret/14fret deal. I have 2 Taylor GC 12frets plus the Shorty and 2 Taylor GA's(probably 1 soon) with 14 frets as well as the Emerald, plus my Lucky 13. No issues going back and forth, maybe a quick adjustment to the uniqueness of each instrument but no "issues" except what was mentioned above.
You really can't go too wrong with any of the current CF crop that I know of. I stopped by Ted's shop and got to play many before my 1st purchase. He and Helene were soooo helpful.
Keep us informed on what you decide.

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

One note of caution re Rainsongs: Some folks really do not like the 20" fretboard radius.
...snip...
If the OP struggles with flatter necks (his Taylor would be 15") then he might not like Rainsongs and might be better off with an Emerald (16") or CA.
...snip...

Excellent point/caveat!

I am one of those players for whom fretboard radius is a very important spec. I can not play on a board flatter than 16" for more than about 30 minutes without experiencing left hand issues.

I recently went through the same search process for a first CF guitar as the OP, and thanks to my research (most of it done in this sub-forum - Thank you all!), I went with a used, mint Composite Acoustic OX RAW.

Composite Acoustics uses a nicely arched 14" fretboard radius, and I find the playability of my OX to be outstanding. It is the best playing guitar (acoustic or electric) I have ever owned.

To the OP, good luck with your search! I hope it is as successful as mine was...I absolutely LOVE my CA OX RAW. It has completely changed by "acoustic guitar world view".

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by Frettingflyer

I just thought I would add my two cents here being that I do also play primarily fingerstyle with flesh only. .....However, and my opinion clashes with many here, [the Emerald] would be the 1st CF to go.

I find myself having to really work too hard to get the volume from it (usually traveling and no amp) that it really affects the way I play. I am trying to pluck so much harder for the same response I may get from my RS or Lucky that my fingers get tense and it goes downhill........Just my experience, and the Emerald is a well built quality guitar with a great voice.......

I can vouch for Dave's comment about the X20 too in my limited way. For a week, I had a Chimaera with 12 string / 6 string necks. I found that guitar to be quieter when fingerpicked than my single-necked guitars (both wood and CF) and I had to dig a bit harder to get the same volume out. I attributed that to the larger body cavity and sound board of the double-neck instrument.

The tone and playability were wonderful, and the slight lack of loudness has not stopped me from ordering a customized X20-12 string -- basically the upper half of the Chimaera. I will finger pick that one too, and strum it with a flat pick. My detailed report will be forthcoming when it gets here around early December.

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by email4eric

......In all of that time, I've not found a more singularly useful post than this one from Ted. That was an amazingly succinct analysis clearly derived from your immense closeness and knowledge with this subset of acoustic guitars.....

Ditto that, Eric. Ted should keep this verbiage from post #21 on his web site, since it is such a useful introduction / synopsis of the current CF world.