ToneDexter test drive - demo

[fiddle fever]

Doug,
Very nice video!!

The idea/goal behind the TD is a "mic sound" without the "mic"...."my acoustic sound, only louder"!

How does the TD compare to say a Grace Design preamp (Alix, Bix or Felix)? I've read many reviews raving that Grace Design preamps can also successfully achieve the "my guitar acoustic sound...only louder".

Just curious?!?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by fiddle fever

Doug,
Very nice video!!

The idea/goal behind the TD is a "mic sound" without the "mic"...."my acoustic sound, only louder"!

How does the TD compare to say a Grace Design preamp (Alix, Bix or Felix)? I've read many reviews raving that Grace Design preamps can also successfully achieve the "my guitar acoustic sound...only louder".

Just curious?!?

Felix doesn't do any DSP of the signal, it's a very high quality preamp, which means it accurately amplifies the sound that is there. It certainly has higher quality sound than lesser preamps, and it has lots of headroom, which helps a lot with quacky pickups - in other words it won't do any damage to your sound, but it doesn't do any modeling transformations like ToneDexter or Aura. These are two totally different philosophies. The goal of a high quality, studio grade preamp like the Grace is to not alter your sound - what goes in comes out, only louder. Lots of studio preamps claim to "sound better", but that always veers toward marketting - a truly audiophile preamp that claims to be clean and pure, like the Grace preamps would not color your sound at all. ToneDexter, Aura and a handful of other devices are all about coloring your sound - they basically promise that what goes in *isn't* what comes out, but that you'll like the sound better. It all depends on what you're looking for.

[fiddle fever]

Doug,

Super great insight/info...thank you!

[Doug Young]

Just saw someone mention in-ear monitors on another thread, and was struck by a thought. I've tried using in-ears, I have a very good custom set, but I've always hated it - with a pickup, the guitar can sound good thru the speakers, out in the room, but the direct sound in earbuds/in-ears is just so bad in most cases that I don't want to play, which isn't helpful. But as I've been messing with ToneDexter, I've spent a fair bit of time listening thru the in-ears, ear-buds, or just headphones, and more often than not, I end up being distracted by just playing and listening to the nice sound. With TD and a bit of reverb, listening thru headphones is really fun. Just one of those little side benefits I hadn't thought about until just now.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Felix doesn't do any DSP of the signal, it's a very high quality preamp, which means it accurately amplifies the sound that is there. It certainly has higher quality sound than lesser preamps, and it has lots of headroom, which helps a lot with quacky pickups - in other words it won't do any damage to your sound, but it doesn't do any modeling transformations like ToneDexter or Aura. These are two totally different philosophies. The goal of a high quality, studio grade preamp like the Grace is to not alter your sound - what goes in comes out, only louder. Lots of studio preamps claim to "sound better", but that always veers toward marketting - a truly audiophile preamp that claims to be clean and pure, like the Grace preamps would not color your sound at all. ToneDexter, Aura and a handful of other devices are all about coloring your sound - they basically promise that what goes in *isn't* what comes out, but that you'll like the sound better. It all depends on what you're looking for.

Doug, I know you have mentioned that you own the Felix. I am just wondering if now that you use the Tonedexter, do you simply run the XLR from it to the board or are you still using the Felix as well? I have been using the Felix primarily due to the sound quality but I also play a variety of instruments on stage so it has given me a chance to eliminate two preamp/DI's as I can easily switch from mandolin to guitar. I will be ordering the Tonedexter for my guitar so I need to decide if I want to run the eq flat on it and simply go Tonedexter into input one on the Felix or just use the XLR out on the Tonedexter.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Doug, I know you have mentioned that you own the Felix. I am just wondering if now that you use the Tonedexter, do you simply run the XLR from it to the board or are you still using the Felix as well? I have been using the Felix primarily due to the sound quality but I also play a variety of instruments on stage so it has given me a chance to eliminate two preamp/DI's as I can easily switch from mandolin to guitar. I will be ordering the Tonedexter for my guitar so I need to decide if I want to run the eq flat on it and simply go Tonedexter into input one on the Felix or just use the XLR out on the Tonedexter.

Right now, it's 2 different setups. With Felix, I have a stereo/dual source setup, which is nice. I hate to lose that, but ToneDexter, mono, also sounds very good. I sort of wish ToneDexter was just a effect box (and small...) that I could put into the Felix effects loop. I could do that as-is, but it'd take up a bit more room on the board.

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Just saw someone mention in-ear monitors on another thread, and was struck by a thought. I've tried using in-ears, I have a very good custom set, but I've always hated it - with a pickup, the guitar can sound good thru the speakers, out in the room, but the direct sound in earbuds/in-ears is just so bad in most cases that I don't want to play, which isn't helpful. But as I've been messing with ToneDexter, I've spent a fair bit of time listening thru the in-ears, ear-buds, or just headphones, and more often than not, I end up being distracted by just playing and listening to the nice sound. With TD and a bit of reverb, listening thru headphones is really fun. Just one of those little side benefits I hadn't thought about until just now.

Man, this is exactly my experience. I'm still experimenting with mikes, positions and training, but I've noticed that when I record using a wavemap, I get lost in the sound very easily. If I scrutinize the sound on playback, I can find lots of little things that need improvement, but the proof is in the pudding - when playing and hearing my sound over headphones, I am compelled to keep playing.

One odd thing though - I find I have become almost too accustomed to the K+K pure mini sound. It's very clear and punchy and balanced. Sometimes when I hear the tonedexterized signal it can seem a little weird at first. Then I start playing and 20 minutes goes by.

[fiddle fever]

I've used TD in live settings since late April, w/ a K&K Collings...a combination that I've enjoyed (especially in a low volume solo or duo setting). I've used this combination in a trio and the "wheels came off the musical cart", meaning I couldn't use my trained wavemap at a higher volume (I got a weird "hollowness" to the sound and feedback). I understand this problem has a lot to with the type of pickup.

I recently switched to a Maton guitar, which doesn't seem to play nice with a TD (totally different pickup system). The Maton pickup is very nice so I'm not too concerned. I still use the TD because I play banjo and fiddle. Doug's mention of using the TD in the effects loop of his Felix is interesting to me (even if he was just joking!). Last gig I needed more volume out of my banjo, so I used an open slot (bypass) mode on my TD, which worked, but I was bummed that I couldn't use a trained wavemap. I realize there's a learning curve to the TD. I've used a lot of different mics and settings with the TD, so I'm still exploring. I have had the most luck using a Shure SM81. I'm just wondering if running it almost like an effects pedal in the loop of Bix would better suit my higher volume needs, not sure....just some thoughts!

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Right now, it's 2 different setups. With Felix, I have a stereo/dual source setup, which is nice. I hate to lose that, but ToneDexter, mono, also sounds very good. I sort of wish ToneDexter was just a effect box (and small...) that I could put into the Felix effects loop. I could do that as-is, but it'd take up a bit more room on the board.

I am the same way, I wish the Tonedexter could be purchased as an all in one unit or just an effect box. I too can simply put it into the effects loop of my Felix but it definitely takes up space.

[Photojeep]

Even though I've been playing through PAs and amps for years, I've only used standard UST pickups. It seems the the demos are all with very high end pickups rather than "normal" types. (I'm sure someone will correct me on that overly-simplistic statement )

So my question is will this device work with say an LR Baggs element or some other more main stream UST? I also have an MXL 770 condenser mic and I have no plans to buy a more expensive mic any time soon, so you will probably recognize my equipment as more pedestrian than that shown in most of these demos.

Will this device work with my equipment?

Thanks,
PJ

[James May]

Originally Posted by Photojeep

Even though I've been playing through PAs and amps for years, I've only used standard UST pickups. It seems the the demos are all with very high end pickups rather than "normal" types. (I'm sure someone will correct me on that overly-simplistic statement )

So my question is will this device work with say an LR Baggs element or some other more main stream UST? I also have an MXL 770 condenser mic and I have no plans to buy a more expensive mic any time soon, so you will probably recognize my equipment as more pedestrian than that shown in most of these demos.

Will this device work with my equipment?

Thanks,
PJ

The MXL770 is a bit peaky in response, so while it'll surely work, results may or may not be to your liking.

The Baggs VTC preamp is problematic as it has a built in compressor which interferes with ToneDexter training. The Element pickup, if used passively or with a simple active preamp, will work very well.

There are a few demos of mine using a simple UST pickup that you can listen to for an example.

[Photojeep]

Originally Posted by James May

The MXL770 is a bit peaky in response, so while it'll surely work, results may or may not be to your liking.

The Baggs VTC preamp is problematic as it has a built in compressor which interferes with ToneDexter training. The Element pickup, if used passively or with a simple active preamp, will work very well.

There are a few demos of mine using a simple UST pickup that you can listen to for an example.

Hi James,
Thank you for your response. I'm not sure what "peaky" means so any help with that would be appreciated.

Also, do you have an idea of an acceptable "simple active preamp" that would be helpful. I plug my Gibson into a Zoom A3 but I don't know if that would qualify as a "simple active preamp".

Thanks again,
PJ

[James May]

Originally Posted by Photojeep

Hi James,
Thank you for your response. I'm not sure what "peaky" means so any help with that would be appreciated.

Also, do you have an idea of an acceptable "simple active preamp" that would be helpful. I plug my Gibson into a Zoom A3 but I don't know if that would qualify as a "simple active preamp".

Thanks again,
PJ

I could have been more specific. By peaky I mean the 10dB jump in the curve from 3KHz to 9KHz.



In general, mics that have a curve much flatter than this work better for purposes of training.

By simple active preamp, I meant on onboard preamp inside your guitar. This is optional and not really needed, because ToneDexter works great even with passive undersaddle pickups like your Element. So you could wire it up directly to the endpin jack, remove the VTC preamp (if that's what you have), and be good to go.

With ToneDexter, you would not need an external preamp A3, but could use it in the signal path if you want use some of its features like reverb and such. If you want to do that, I would put it in the FX loop of ToneDexter.

[Photojeep]

Thank you James.

As far as I know I do not have a pre amp in my LR Baggs Element. I don’t know if it makes a difference but mine has only a volume control. The unit in other Gibsons has a tone control along with the volume. It is active in that it has a 9 volt battery in a little bag attached with Velcro inside the body.

Thanks again,
PJ

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by James May

The MXL770 is a bit peaky in response, so while it'll surely work, results may or may not be to your liking.

The Baggs VTC preamp is problematic as it has a built in compressor which interferes with ToneDexter training. The Element pickup, if used passively or with a simple active preamp, will work very well.

There are a few demos of mine using a simple UST pickup that you can listen to for an example.

James,

Have you actually tried using ToneDexter with a passive Element tranducer?

I tried to preamp a passive DTAR Wavelength transducer (reportedly the same transducer, supplied by LR Baggs) once and found the results to be extremely trebly. I tried several different preamps, including two with input impedances of 10 Mohms. Rick Turner (co-founder of DTAR) told me that the passive Wavelength transducer requires an input impedance "in the neighborhood of" 100 Mohms to provide a balanced tone.