Racial Bias, Part Two

[buddyhu]

I am starting a new thread, because the old one garnered over 300 posts, and needed to be closed due to size.

I don't have more to add right now on the topic.

But I continue to take great pride in our community as I reflect on the restraint and positivity of the discussion. It reflects well on us, and it proabaly also reflects a profound, postive change in our culture in the span of my life. Very impressive. Really.

Actually, I am adding an edit. I remember my maternal grandmother (born in the South in 1893) saying things like, "I'm afraid I'm going to end up with pickaninnies ( mixed race offspring) for grandchildren". She was a wonderful woman, and I loved her dearly (still cherish and love her memory). But she was a racist, and it pains me to acknowledge that; hard for me to reconcile her many wonderful traits and qualities (and my deep love for her, and her many contributions to the goodness of my life today) with the presence of an unexamined bias.

Of course, there were many worse examples of racism that were being tolerated in her era. But the point I want to make : it is amazing to think that, in the span of my life, there have been such huge changes made in this culture, such that our diverse AGF community can have a pretty good exchange about this topic, with much civility and noteworthy restraint. Amazing, truly.

May we all experience great resources, great opportunities, and great freedom.

[jazzguy]

With all do respect to the topic - why is this being discussed on a guitar forum?

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by jazzguy

With all do respect to the topic - why is this being discussed on a guitar forum?

That is what Open Mic is about..anything of interest,,including non-guitar stuff.

[Wengr]

Originally Posted by jazzguy

With all do respect to the topic - why is this being discussed on a guitar forum?

Because this is the section intended for various topics, and there appears to be good level of interest, and some worthwhile discourse. I want to thank the op for posting a very thought provoking article.

[Twelvefret]

Originally Posted by jazzguy

With all do respect to the topic - why is this being discussed on a guitar forum?

Think this is odd? You wouldn't believe what goes on over at the banjo forum.

[kydave]

During that first thread (Kudos all around to members & mods for its lifespan!), I couldn't help but wonder if any members of color were involved. Just a side thought...

If someone so stated, I apologize, but some replies got skimmed through quickly as it was such a fast growing thread...

Moving on...

Lots of angles previously discussed, but I wonder how much "which came first? Chicken or the egg?" aspect of the issue is now in place?

By that I mean, MUCH (IMO) of the prejudice involved (I deliberately use that word rather than racism) is currently due to socio-economic status and social behaviors stemming therefrom.

People grow up poor, see little hope for leaving their poverty stricken community, resort to crime, eschewing pursuing education as a path out...

People not from that community rightly fear and, indeed despise, if not hate, the perpetrators of anti social acts from that community.

The fact that often these socio-economic divides fall along color lines throws the race card into place. But at this point, is racial prejudice the chicken or the egg?



(And - no - I am not ignoring the fact that much of the current socio-economic disparity is a direct result of past generations' overt racism, whether on an institutional level or personal level.)

[sweiss]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

I remember my maternal grandmother........

Your Grandmother, and my Grandparents too for that matter, came from an entirely different place and time than you and I. They were products of their environment and upbringing just as we are.

In a nutshell, I think it's entirely unfair to judge people from two generations ago by todays standards.

[flaggerphil]

I'll repost this from the first installment. Still curious...

"Just out of curiosity, how many participants in this thread are of African American (black, in the language of my early adulthood) descent?

And, just out of curiosity, how many participants of this thread lived in the deep south (Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida are the places I lived in or near) in the mid 20th century (say...'40s, '50s, '60s)?

Again, just curious."

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

I remember my maternal grandmother (born in the South in 1893) saying things like, "I'm afraid I'm going to end up with pickaninnies ( mixed race offspring) for grandchildren". She was a wonderful woman, . . . But she was a racist,

If that's the worst of what she said/thought, that's pretty good, I'd say.

My granddad (according to my dad, I never hear him say this) believed that Blacks didn't have souls. Somewhat of a "lesser than human", I suppose, much what people like Charles Darwin (or at least many of his followers in the day) seemed to believe. I suspect it was probably just a way they had of coping/understanding what was going on around them.

I was taught no such thing. I doubt my dad was actually TAUGHT it, either (though I never asked). I can remember at a very young age thinking of Blacks, etc as really no different than us (other than the stereotypical love of watermelon, fried chicken, etc).

On the other hand, if you were to listen in when my dad is watching the news, you're likely to hear some choice words being used to describe certain individuals or groups of individuals . . . but I know that's not how he feels about ALL people of that color/race. It's clearly directed at ones who hold certain views and do certain actions.

I think that's about the fastest pace of change one can reasonably hope for . . . it takes generations.

But, I have to agree with HHP in the first thread: Just when will we really agree that it's no longer a problem worth keeping on the front page? I'd suggest it's a two-way street, and when one can't criticize a certain person over his POLICIES without being branded a racist, it's still a problem . . largely from the OTHER side. Or certainly from those who profit from "playing the race card".

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by kydave

But at this point, is racial prejudice the chicken or the egg?

I think RACE is largely the egg (assuming we've determined that the chicken did, indeed, come first ).

Most of the prejudice is linked to socio-economic status, IMO. But even more than that, it's related to the individual behaviors of certain people within any given socio-economic strata.

There ARE those in the lower socio-economic strata who don't primarily blame those above them (or the system) for their problems. They realize that it's largely determined by the hand fate has dealt them and also by their response to it. Does that mean there aren't other issues involved, too? Of course not.

[Twelvefret]

Originally Posted by sweiss

Your Grandmother, and my Grandparents too for that matter, came from an entirely different place and time than you and I. They were products of their environment and upbringing just as we are.

In a nutshell, I think it's entirely unfair to judge people from two generations ago by todays standards.

I am going to disagree. Then and now, people are responsible for the way they act and the way they think. There were white people who were Abolitionists that thought and acted according to what they knew was right and were in the minority view that Negros were fully human and that it was morally wrong for them to be enslaved.

There are people who refuse to give in , then and now, to separating themselves from others based on skin color. My grand parents attended a funeral for an AA family. They were the only white people present. They received some looks. A family member came over to them and told the others, "these are my people".

In 1985, I found out that biracial babies were being born and the white and black communities did not want them. This was a chance for us to add to our family and we pursued adoption. Today, I have three biracial grand children from this adopted child. I never think of their skin color. I think the reason is because I know them and love them. I think they are beautiful.

What a person has to do is act with intention. Do what you have to do to get to know and have a conversation with those of other races. Fight the urge to do nothing or carry stereotypical distrust around in your thinking.

Stand up for what is morally correct and act. This will have an impact on those who continue to show prejudice toward others. It will not be popular and others will say this or that which is but a load of excuses, but you can persist if you decide to be an example for yourself, your family, and your community. My grand parent's influence allowed me to value others because they are a human being.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Twelvefret

I am going to disagree. Then and now, people are responsible for the way they act and the way they think. There were white people who were Abolitionists that thought and acted according to what they knew was right and were in the minority view that Negros were fully human and that it was morally wrong for them to be enslaved.

There are people who refuse to give in , then and now, to separating themselves from others based on skin color. My grand parents attended a funeral for an AA family. They were the only white people present. They received some looks. A family member came over to them and told the others, "these are my people".

The era is important, in my view. Generations hence, we may find people looking back and marveling at the barbarity of those who attempted to deny gays the right to marry. However, those of us who do believe in this right in the present moment do not generally see the 'antis' as brutish flat-earthists because within our era, the notion of gay marriage is relatively new, and it can take time for people's minds to grasp a new parameter. In the future, the perspective will be quite different, I think. I would guess that gay marriage will seem such an obvious right that the very notion of trying to stop a gay couple from marrying will seem horrendous.

I imagine the same has held true with racism and even slavery in the days when reform was young. We might look back and wonder how some people could possibly have held such oppressive views when there were people who did not and who were pressing for change. But I'll bet those freedom fighters did not regard their opponents with such outrage as we do from our more enlightened vantage point in the future.

[Otterhound]

In music , there is only 1 color , the blues .

[Psalad]

Context matters but I think we are still all responsible for our words regardless of the political spectrum of the time.

[mc1]

i like to try and think about what existing attitudes are prejudiced but currently aren't recognized as such (but will be in the future).