Scales...When is enough enough?

[mr. beaumont]

Maybe I'm overthinking...but some of the things I read like "do you really need to play in all keys?" or "unless you want to play esoteric jazz" or "most songs you like are probably in a handful of keys" as stifling the idea of fretboard mastery...Maybe he won't play a tune in G#...but what if he DID?

I think the important thing is not to limit what someone goes after, but to help them apply it so that it's not just "knowledge in a vacuum."

Just my 2 cents.

[Kerbie]

I agree wholeheartedly, Jeff. I just think he can incorporate other things while he's still learning how master and apply scale knowledge.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Kerbie

I agree wholeheartedly, Jeff. I just think he can incorporate other things while he's still learning how master and apply scale knowledge.

Oh, definitely...that's why I said "make it part of, but not all of your practice time."

Music still has to be made...that's what it's all about.

But I think if one was able to carve out 15 minutes a day, one could have the major scales down in a few months pretty well.

[HHP]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Oh, definitely...that's why I said "make it part of, but not all of your practice time."

Music still has to be made...that's what it's all about.

But I think if one was able to carve out 15 minutes a day, one could have the major scales down in a few months pretty well.

I just remember a story Doug Green (aka Ranger Doug) told about getting to play guitar with Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys. Green was quite well versed in the fretboard and had amassed a large vocabulary of chords.

When they played, Green thought he could spice it up and inserted some imaginative but unusual chord voicings he thought fit well with the music. Monroe turned around from the microphone and told Green to "Play it like it was wrote!"

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The amount of posts encouraging someone to NOT pursue knowledge is very disappointing.

EDIT: As are my attempts to spell "disappointing"

That was not suggested so simply. It is more along the line that there are only so many hours available in a day, or a week, or a month, to devote to playing the guitar.

How to best spend that time to develop the ability to play what you want to play?

Do you spend some of your time working on your rasgueado and tremolo?
Do you spend enough time to become an expert playing cascading harmonics?

"Jack of all trades, master of none". Use your time wisely. Focus most on what you can use to play what you want to play.

[mr. beaumont]

Well, the OP did say he wants to be able to improvise freely...

I dunno...Maybe I'm old school, but I don't see knowing the major scales as extra knowledge, i see them completely fundamental to understanding music.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by TexasCowGrower

I'm on a mission to learn Theory as applied to the guitar. Obviously its best to learn scales frontwards and backwards all up and down the neck but given each has some 12 variations, where do you draw the line when committing to memory before moving to the next scale? I know the notes in a given scale and where to find them on the fretboard but at some point it becomes a hunt and peck adventure rather than rote. I'm old and not sure I'll live long enough to memorize 12 variations of each scale! At what point do I move on to learning about chord construction and modes?

Mr. Beaumont mentioned this and I'm going to second it. I think a more efficient way to look at this is to see the major scale (and all scales) as just one pattern, WWHWWWH (TTSTTTS), and to realize that all 12 variations are exactly the same pattern starting on different notes. If you are thinking of it that way, then you are moving your fingers according to the intervals, the pattern, not hunting and pecking for particular note names. I could derive every note name, where all the sharps and flats are, etc., but that's not how I would play the scale in any key, and I learned all of this for the same reason, to be able to improvise and compose.

As for chord construction, that's essential, in my view, and more fundamental. Every major chord, for example, can be thought of as a major third with a minor third stacked on top or 4semitones (frets) with 3 semitones on top, or a major third/perfect 5th... depending on how you want to refer to it. They would all mean the same thing and every major chord will be formed the same way so starting on any note, you play the root, the note that is a major 3rd away, then the note that is a minor 3rd from that and you've got a major chord. A minor triad is minor 3rd/major 3rd, a diminished is minor 3rd/minor 3rd... etc.

Modes are always problematic to talk about but, later, you could also look at those as just another scale pattern.

In other words, memorizing separate note names for each key isn't really the best the way to go about this, imo, and I'm all for learning theory/harmony/fretboard architecture, etc. Big fan!

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by TexasCowGrower

Bear in mind I'm fairly new at this so WHICH major scale are you referring to as THE major scale? This is partly the reason for my original post as I know the C major, E major, F major pretty much up and down the fretboard and I can pick out the rest but I'm not really "fluent" yet. I look at this process as a building block in a larger endeavor so I THINK I need to get this down before learning HOW to apply them. I'm still in the dark about that! I am doing this by myself so maybe I'm missing the part about the need for integration at this point. My ultimate goal is effective improvisation and as with Kerbie I enjoy noodling rather than learning someone else's songs. HHP brings up a good point in his roadmap analogy. I have never looked at it like that before.

Sorry about that. I tend to think of scale learning as where are the whole and half steps. And not as much placed on the neck, which certainly is needed. The great thing about the guitar is, while it is somewhat confusing moving across the neck due to that pesky G to B 3rd interval, it is highly repetitive up and down the fret board. So learn one place on the neck and you have a lot of keys under your fingers by sliding up the fretboard.

Sounds like a path that will work out. When you really start getting theoretical and see the building blocks at work, you will find your major scale is also a lot of other scales they work with a LOT of music.

have fun

hunter

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by TexasCowGrower

I'm on a mission to learn Theory as applied to the guitar. Obviously its best to learn scales frontwards and backwards all up and down the neck but given each has some 12 variations

It doesn't though. The major scale has one fretboard pattern - it happens to be 12 frets long, but it's one pattern. It's the same pattern for every major scale, it's just moved up or down the fretboard.
Naturally we break the 12-fret pattern down into a handful of overlapping 4-5 fret "boxes" so we can play in any position without moving our left hand (each position contains over two octaves).
Essentially it's one pattern and five positions. Same for every major scale. (You can make it 7 positions if you want to make your life more complicated.)

Originally Posted by TexasCowGrower

, where do you draw the line when committing to memory before moving to the next scale? I know the notes in a given scale and where to find them on the fretboard but at some point it becomes a hunt and peck adventure rather than rote.

In that case you don't know them well enough.

The note names are not the important thing anyway - they're just signposts on the way. You certainly don't want to be thinking in note names when playing or improvising. Better to think in terms of chord tones, intervals and scale degrees.

IMO, the only scale you need to commit to memory (in terms of fretboard mapping anyway) is C major. Then you'll know where all the sharps and flats are because they're in the gaps.

It's more useful to learn chord shapes, because they (not scale patterns) are your guide when improvising. You know that every major chord (all 12) is playable in 5 shapes, covering the whole neck? That also applies to extended versions of those chords: dom7s, maj7s, 9s, sus4s, etc. (Minors only have 3 actual shapes, the other positions are arpeggios.)

Originally Posted by TexasCowGrower

At what point do I move on to learning about chord construction

Now!
That is, I'm guessing you already know a handful of shapes. You need to know which is root 3rd and 5th (and 7th etc) in each shape, and how to play each chord anywhere on the neck. That's a more useful exercise than cramming scale patterns. (Chord knowledge, note knowledge and fretboard knowledge all support each other.)

Originally Posted by TexasCowGrower

and modes?

Never!

Practise songs and chord progressions - all over the neck.

[tonyo]

Useful thread guys, thanks. I avoided scales and theory when I first started and that was a big help to get me passionate about playing. Now that I'm a good medium level player, I've embraced learning scales and theory.

For me the goal is to be able to noodle along to any song as up to now I've needed to know the chords. It's been a lot of work with the major scale to get to this point for little reward, but I can see that it's getting me there. My improv keeps improving.

I'll look at modes at some stage, they make sense to me, but my goal is to be able to play improv / lead and the pentatonic and major scale will do that for the majority of what I play.

My advice is keep your goals a short term and specific as you can. A goal "so that I become a better player" is too vague.

[815C]

I would guess I know more scale fingerings than the average guy. I've written books on how to play two octaves of any scale/mode/arpeggio in any key at any position on the neck, as well has how to play 3 octave scales and arpeggios. One of these books was used at Berklee School of Music for awhile. I've practiced these fingerings for decades.

Now what I was somewhat surprised to find is how much this knowledge of scales (and the subsequent indirect ear training which is a result of playing them) has helped increase the quality and interest of fingerstyle solo guitar arrangements - which are not typically associate directly with scales.

What I have experienced is that my very thorough knowledge of the fretboard (and resulting ear training) has opened my mind to the options available for fingerstyle arrangments.

Of course during my decades of practicing scales, I have made it a priority to perform SONGS in bands, learn fiddle tunes, jazz standards, etc. Scales are a means to an end. The end we're all aiming for is songs.

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The amount of posts encouraging someone to NOT pursue knowledge is very disappointing.

Have you ever used a crescent wrench when you have a full tool box?

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

Have you ever used a crescent wrench when you have a full tool box?

The major scale is not a crescent wrench...I'd argue it's the whole box the other tools fit in.

[TexasCowGrower]

Excellent information! I like the idea of learning all of the chord positions up and down the neck so at this point I will incorporate that into my practice. Spending an hour practicing scales is a little monotonous. You all have definitely shined a light on what in the beginning seemed to be a dark and mystical art. I have vowed to conquer playing the guitar well and the only question now is my resolve before I give up and move to something a little easier to play...like a RADIO

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by TexasCowGrower

I have vowed to conquer playing the guitar well and the only question now is my resolve before I give up and move to something a little easier to play...like a RADIO

I think this is the main thing about playing the guitar. You either do it or you don't. So keep it fun by doing things that are fun for you. I work on things to play on the guitar that I want to be able to play. But there are other times I play what I enjoy just to have fun. It is the reason I play the guitar.