Learning to sing properly

[Mycroft]

Thanks, everyone, for the responses.

Silly Mustache, I've considered some official vocal lessons. You are probably right, in that I'd get the most bang for the buck there. I have been getting some advice from my guitar teacher, although his focus is on instrument rather than voice, he does have an understanding of what is involved.

We started off on that tangent after learning the chords for "I Walk the Line," in part because of the modulation between keys. Then after working out the melody, I began trying to sing along with the melody. But I haven't tried singing along a scale run, as Wuchak suggested. My guitar teacher did suggest singing into a mic plugged into my phone's tuner. That does tell you a bit if you are near a note, but is almost too accurate as the reading fluctuates to quickly to be real useful. Any thoughts on a phone (or computer) widget that might be more useful.

In the meantime, as I can't walk and chew gum at the same time, aI have been pulling up random tab that I have for songs where I sort of know how the vocal melody line goes, basically strumming 4 beats to a measure irregardless of if I'm playing the correct chord, and singing the songs vocal melody. It sounds as horrible as, well, it sounds. But it will help me get use to playing and singing at the same time. I hope.

But, yeah, take some vocal lessons.

Thanks

TW

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I've been working with youtube and such free sources as well as some singing on pitch games and exercises. Honestly, just knowing the basics about breathing and relaxation and changing resonance (chest, head...) as well as figuring out my range so I can choose songs that work for me, all that, has made a big difference already.

I'm huge into self-teaching and am really good at learning alone, but I do think I'll look into a voice coach. I am thinking of just doing an online/video feedback sort of thing first to see how that goes. I do think, though, that I'm going to need real feedback eventually. At least watching a bunch of youtube has also given me ideas about what I would look for in a teacher.


In any case I've saved some money by learning the fundamentals on my own.

What pitch games and exercises, please? Youtube clips?

Thanks.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

Record yourself singing. It may be brutal, but it will give you some objectivity. Any old cassette recorder will do.

Or a zoom. Although most phones have a recording app for recording notes on that would suffice.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

I have been pulling up random tab that I have for songs where I sort of know how the vocal melody line goes, basically strumming 4 beats to a measure irregardless of if I'm playing the correct chord, and singing the songs vocal melody. It sounds as horrible as, well, it sounds. But it will help me get use to playing and singing at the same time. I hope.

But, yeah, take some vocal lessons.

Thanks

TW

Sounds tortuous. Let's assume you actually can sing. Make a real effort to figure out the right key for you, don't feel you have to sing in the wrong one if the wrong one is something really "easy" like G or C. That will make a big difference right away. With some software (I use Melodyne) you can figure out what key you are naturally singing in, match in on guitar, then make corrections in the tune/pitches that you need to. You might find out that you naturally sing much more easily in Ab when something is in G, for example. With this, you don't have to torture yourself quite so much.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by HOF dad

I don't think that solo guitar with no vocals are going to cut it at the entry level. If you can play like Tommy E, then you're good to go.

Yeah, but he can sing too. I am screwed.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

What pitch games and exercises, please? Youtube clips?

Thanks.

I use this one to convince myself I actually can hear and reproduce a pitch. Hey, confidence is very important in singing.

https://trainer.thetamusic.com/en/co...-degrees-major

With youtube, it's hit or miss. I watched some good, some bad, but they led me to research the basic concepts. I like this woman. She's exceedingly perky (I'm warning you) but she explains things well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZN_8kcu-q4

I'm pretty good at weeding out nonsense and there's just as much of that in vocal teaching online as there is on guitar, so buyer beware, but I was able to figure out how to shift from chest to head voice, some techniques for controlling tone, breathing properly, etc. It was also hugely helpful to watch videos and figure out what my range and voice type is so I can better choose songs that work for me.

I also have played around with Melodyne quite a bit to see how far off I am in pitch. I can correct the pitch, listen to it corrected in my own voice, and then I can sing it back pretty easily. This way I can even figure out higher notes than I thought I could do fairly easily.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Antaren

Mycroft, you say, "But I'd like to learn to properly sing on pitch," are you sure you're not singing on pitch? Did someone tell you that? Are you able to tune a guitar to pitch without a tuner? If you can tune a guitar, then it tells me that you can hear what's "on pitch" but you can't produce a vocal sound on pitch. Is that the case? I've taken vocal lessons on and off for years. Some teachers have been helpful, some not so. I would advise you to find a good teacher who knows something about the anatomy of the voice. Ask around. Take some lessons from a human. Let them know you don't want to be an opera singer (unless you do want to do that). Let them know what your goals are. Sing with people. Enjoy your voice while your learning. Good luck!

Lots of good points here. To answer in order:

I sing along fairly closely, but am generally a little bit sharp. That from my guitar teacher, Bob Crow, who sings when performing.

No, I can't tune by ear, but can generally tell when I am out of tune, or when a string is off and can tune it by ear to the other strings. I can't just produce a "G" on demand, I need a note to try and match.

I do know some good singers, but am not sure how well they could teach, so may have to see what Dusty Strings has...

Thanks

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

I can't just produce a "G" on demand, I need a note to try and match.

Even really good singers often need the note first. I don't know if this is an issue for you, but, for me, a big part of improving in the last few months was just finding enough information to realize that this is not magic. Good singers also can't sing outside their range, or pick notes out of thin air, or sing when they can't hear the accompaniment (lip syncing anyone). My own expectations of this magical ability were way off.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Sounds tortuous. Let's assume you actually can sing. Make a real effort to figure out the right key for you, don't feel you have to sing in the wrong one if the wrong one is something really "easy" like G or C. That will make a big difference right away. With some software (I use Melodyne) you can figure out what key you are naturally singing in, match in on guitar, then make corrections in the tune/pitches that you need to. You might find out that you naturally sing much more easily in Ab when something is in G, for example. With this, you don't have to torture yourself quite so much.

Actually the idea is to start becoming comfortable with doing two things at the same time, playing and singing. To start, the idea is to simplify one or the other. I could also play the song chords properly and just hum the melody, which several of my friends say that they do when learning a new song. But for now, it is the learning to walk and chew gum at the same time thing. It is for that purpose and not so much for the accuracy in singing (or playing).

Which version of Melodyne, which I gather is akin to Autotune. Sweretwater has them between $99 and $699.

TW

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Actually the idea is to start becoming comfortable with doing two things at the same time, playing and singing. To start, the idea is to simplify one or the other. I could also play the song chords properly and just hum the melody, which several of my friends say that they do when learning a new song. But for now, it is the learning to walk and chew gum at the same time thing. It is for that purpose and not so much for the accuracy in singing (or playing).

Which version of Melodyne, which I gather is akin to Autotune. Sweretwater has them between $99 and $699.

TW

I just have the baby one. Essential 4.x

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I use this one to convince myself I actually can hear and reproduce a pitch. Hey, confidence is very important in singing.

https://trainer.thetamusic.com/en/co...-degrees-major

With youtube, it's hit or miss. I watched some good, some bad, but they led me to research the basic concepts. I like this woman. She's exceedingly perky (I'm warning you) but she explains things well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZN_8kcu-q4

I'm pretty good at weeding out nonsense and there's just as much of that in vocal teaching online as there is on guitar, so buyer beware, but I was able to figure out how to shift from chest to head voice, some techniques for controlling tone, breathing properly, etc. It was also hugely helpful to watch videos and figure out what my range and voice type is so I can better choose songs that work for me.

I also have played around with Melodyne quite a bit to see how far off I am in pitch. I can correct the pitch, listen to it corrected in my own voice, and then I can sing it back pretty easily. This way I can even figure out higher notes than I thought I could do fairly easily.

Heh, I can tell that she is adequately caffeinated. I'll have a go with her clips.

Yeah, I'm good at weeding through the learning guitar clips Ms. Harvey's looks like a good place to start. Thanks.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Even really good singers often need the note first. I don't know if this is an issue for you, but, for me, a big part of improving in the last few months was just finding enough information to realize that this is not magic. Good singers also can't sing outside their range, or pick notes out of thin air, or sing when they can't hear the accompaniment (lip syncing anyone). My own expectations of this magical ability were way off.

I understand what you are saying. Looking back at the Johnny Cash tune that I mentioned early, where he modulates between keys for each verse, you can hear him humming the root note to match the guitar before he starts singing.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Actually the idea is to start becoming comfortable with doing two things at the same time, playing and singing. To start, the idea is to simplify one or the other. I could also play the song chords properly and just hum the melody, which several of my friends say that they do when learning a new song. But for now, it is the learning to walk and chew gum at the same time thing. It is for that purpose and not so much for the accuracy in singing (or playing).

TW

That makes sense. The humming is helpful, too, though because you can hear the pitches from your guitar and match them before you try to do lyrics. Very helpful in staying in key later. And gives you a chance to perfect your timing before you start covering up any tempo mistakes with singing.

Another thing I find helpful with this is becoming aware that much teaching on the internet shows a strumming pattern for the rhythm that seems to be taken from the idea of playing rhythm guitar with a band, where you would have the job of maintaining this one steady pattern. Imo, this does not sound good when playing solo and can sound pretty bad. Some people sound very robotic. If you're trying to do that, it is very difficult to sing with that. It's much easier and sounds better, to me, to relax and listen to what I'm playing, set the rhythm that works for my phrasing, add fills between lyric, etc. I'm still keeping a beat of course, but it's much easier than just a strumming pattern that may or may not really fit what I'm singing. Others should weigh in. This is just my view as a singer/songwriter.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

I understand what you are saying. Looking back at the Johnny Cash tune that I mentioned early, where he modulates between keys for each verse, you can hear him humming the root note to match the guitar before he starts singing.

I do this for Bobby McGee. Key changes are hard.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I just have the baby one. Essential 4.x

Thanks. Still a C-note. Looks like there is a 30-day demo, though. Thanks