Question on singing and placement of capo

[phxguy]

There might not be a logical answer to this but I am curious, so here goes.
I am learning a song (that's the way love goes) that I found a great version of on you tube where the singer has the capo on the first fret and starts with a D chord shape, so I take it that would be D sharp? The primary chords are D, G and A and I couldn't sing it comfortably in the position he was using. I kept moving the capo up the neck until at the 6th fret I could sing it comfortably and I am very much a baritone. So far so good, but then I tried it without a capo at all and I found that to be comfortable for me as well. This has gotten me completely confused as to how both of these positions that are so far apart from each other work for me and everything in between seems to be a strain and a poor fit for my voice. If anyone can explain this to me I would be very appreciative as it makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

[stanron]

All tunes have a highest note and a lowest note. All voices have a range between the highest and lowest comfortable notes that can be sung. It's not uncommon for a voices range to be greater than the songs range, and that means that the song will fit in a range of keys. You can sing this song in open D and in D capoed at the sixth fret. D at the sixth fret is G# so you can sing it between G# and D. Simple keys in this range include A, C and, as you have discovered, D.

As well as trying the song in open D you could try transposing the song into G and experimenting with the capo above the first fret and you could also transpose it into A and try without a capo or with one anywhere on the first 5 frets. Find the key where your voice is most comfortable.

[phxguy]

Thanks so much stanron. I don't have a particularly wide range so that is what really confused me. Most of the songs I play and sing start with a G shape chord, either open G or with a capo on the first or second fret. This particular song really sounds best, at least to me, with these chords. By the way, I really have a problem with songs that start in C unless I capo way up the neck. I've tried Pancho and Lefty that way in open C and really strain but if I start in G it works great.

[mc1]

perhaps you are singing an octave lower in one of the positions.

[stanron]

Originally Posted by mc1

perhaps you are singing an octave lower in one of the positions.

I would guess that in open D you are at the top of your range and with the capo at the sixth fret you are at the bottom.

A long time ago I worked out the highest note I could sing comfortably. Ever since then when I started to learn a new song I found the highest note in the tune and worked out the key where the highest note in the song was below or just at my highest singing note. After that comes the choice of key on the guitar.

[slewis]

Originally Posted by stanron

I would guess that in open D you are at the top of your range and with the capo at the sixth fret you are at the bottom.

A long time ago I worked out the highest note I could sing comfortably. Ever since then when I started to learn a new song I found the highest note in the tune and worked out the key where the highest note in the song was below or just at my highest singing note. After that comes the choice of key on the guitar.

That's exactly what I do too and it helps me zero-in very quickly on where I need to be on the guitar.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by phxguy

Thanks so much stanron. I don't have a particularly wide range so that is what really confused me. Most of the songs I play and sing start with a G shape chord, either open G or with a capo on the first or second fret. This particular song really sounds best, at least to me, with these chords. By the way, I really have a problem with songs that start in C unless I capo way up the neck. I've tried Pancho and Lefty that way in open C and really strain but if I start in G it works great.

Just to echo stanron:
It's not a matter of the key of the song (and certainly not the starting chord), but its range. The keynote might be anywhere within that range.

You need to find the lowest and highest notes in the whole song, and check if you can reach both of them.
If not, you need to raise or lower those notes until they are both reachable.

Remember you can choose a different octave (keeping the same key).
(Eg, as a baritone/bass myself, I find Neil Young songs are usually easy enough for me in his key an octave down from where he sings them. He is a tenor with quite a high range.)

Taking your example of Pancho & Lefty. The original key is D (Townes Van Zandt used C shapes with capo on fret 2).
But - as we're saying - the key is not relevant to whether you can sing it in that key or not; it's the range that matters.
The lowest note in that song (as TVZ sings it) is A (open 5th string), on the word "breath" in the first verse)), and the highest is D (fret 3 2nd string, on "mama's only"). That's a fairly wide range (octave plus 4th) but not unusual. (The top note in this case happens to be the keynote, but that's coincidence.)
That should be a good range for a baritone - I'd say Van Zandt was a baritone. It's in the lower register of baritone, but comfortable enough.
(Willie Nelson and Bob Dylan did it in the same key. Steve Earle did it in C, whole step lower; Emmylou Harris also in C, an octave higher.)

If you were to sing it in key of G (1st chord G), then you'd either need to be able to get up to G on 3rd fret 1st string (very high for baritone), or (lowering the octave) get down as far as a D below bottom E on guitar.
It's not unusual for a male voice to be able to get up to that high G, but - if you can do that easily - I'd say you might be a tenor, not a baritone. (That G is right at the top end of baritone register.)
If, OTOH, you're singing it down, - right down to that bass D - then you're in the lower reaches of bass register!

IOW, if you're sure you're a baritone (and you're sure you're singing the right notes!), you ought to find the key of C easy enough for that song. If not, I'd try D or E (using C shapes, capo anywhere on the low frets). If your range is fairly narrow, you'll have very few choices, because of the wide range of the melody.
If you want to use G shapes (eg to avoid an F-shape barre!), you could use capo on fret 5, which would put you in key of C.

[slowesthand]

You guys are blowing me away with this knowledge of singing and keys to use! I'm like you Phxguy, never got the capo placement.

Take Trace Adkins for example, probably one of the deepest voices. There is a vid of him doing Wayfaring Stranger , he has the capo I think on the 3rd fret, playing in the C shape, I wondered why with his deep voice did he need a capo. Someday I'll get it...maybe!

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by slowesthand

You guys are blowing me away with this knowledge of singing and keys to use! I'm like you Phxguy, never got the capo placement.

Take Trace Adkins for example, probably one of the deepest voices. There is a vid of him doing Wayfaring Stranger , he has the capo I think on the 3rd fret, playing in the C shape, I wondered why with his deep voice did he need a capo. Someday I'll get it...maybe!

Hi sh...

Good singers (experienced ones) know their range, and where the strongest part of that is, and often transpose to specific keys to fit the range of the song to their voice's strength. And when they are making BIG bucks, they can be very selective.

Professional singers are so specific about which keys they play in because of the strength of their voice over that entire range. Trace Adkins is a singer first, and he is being sold on the sound of his voice.

[slowesthand]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi sh...

Good singers (experienced ones) know their range, and where the strongest part of that is, and often transpose to specific keys to fit the range of the song to their voice's strength. And when they are making BIG bucks, they can be very selective.

Professional singers are so specific about which keys they play in because of the strength of their voice over that entire range. Trace Adkins is a singer first, and he is being sold on the sound of his voice.

You're right about that lj, if Adkins wasn't playing guitar, no one would care what key he was in, or where the capo was!

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by phxguy

There might not be a logical answer to this but I am curious, so here goes.
I am learning a song (that's the way love goes) that I found a great version of on you tube where the singer has the capo on the first fret and starts with a D chord shape, so I take it that would be D sharp? The primary chords are D, G and A and I couldn't sing it comfortably in the position he was using. I kept moving the capo up the neck until at the 6th fret I could sing it comfortably and I am very much a baritone. So far so good, but then I tried it without a capo at all and I found that to be comfortable for me as well. This has gotten me completely confused as to how both of these positions that are so far apart from each other work for me and everything in between seems to be a strain and a poor fit for my voice. If anyone can explain this to me I would be very appreciative as it makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

When you moved 5 positions up the neck from capo 1, you most likely dropped an octave with your voice. This works. People don't realize that a half step, i.e. Eb from D, is actually a big change when singing. Not so much for instruments, but especially for people with limited range. Try singing it in the original key "D" and see how it goes. I'm a natural tenor, but I can sing baritone too, bari/tenor some people call it. So, I will typically play various folk songs in capo 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Occasionally, I'll play the Beatles and need caop 8. Capo 1 is rare for me.

Just remember, Don't Bb!

If you play with male and female singers, you get used to shuffling keys a lot.

[Hotspur]

Yeah, like others, my first question was this:

What notes are you singing? Are you starting on the same octave?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by slowesthand

You guys are blowing me away with this knowledge of singing and keys to use! I'm like you Phxguy, never got the capo placement.

Take Trace Adkins for example, probably one of the deepest voices. There is a vid of him doing Wayfaring Stranger , he has the capo I think on the 3rd fret, playing in the C shape, I wondered why with his deep voice did he need a capo. Someday I'll get it...maybe!

He needed a capo because he's singing in the key of C minor, and capo on 3 gives him easy Am shapes.

The range of the song is an octave (C-C, coincidentally the keynote) and - in that key - doesn't go particularly low - only down to the C on fret 3 5th string (maybe one Bb below that, coming up to C at the end of the tune).
It's baritone register, but could also be sung by a bass. A true bass might prefer to go lower.

IOW, choice of key depends on the range of the song (can you sing both the highest and lowest notes in the melody?)
Unless your range is very limited you're likely to have a few close choices of key. Eg, if you can sing it in the same key as Adkins, maybe you could also sing it in B minor or C# minor? Or Bb minor or D minor?
Your choice then might depend on chord shapes - which might then lead to use of a capo to make things easier.

[RedJoker]

I'm working on "Iris" by the Googoo dolls and find I have to both transpose to chords I know and capo to a range I can sing the whole song. Stupid mid song octave jump....

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by slowesthand

You guys are blowing me away with this knowledge of singing and keys to use! I'm like you Phxguy, never got the capo placement.

Take Trace Adkins for example, probably one of the deepest voices. There is a vid of him doing Wayfaring Stranger , he has the capo I think on the 3rd fret, playing in the C shape, I wondered why with his deep voice did he need a capo. Someday I'll get it...maybe!

Mmm, I'm not sure I understand what you don't understand (not trying to be funny), but I wonder if my methodology might help:

I mostly play with my guitar , open, or with capo on 2nd or 4th.

Open allows me to play (and sing) in : e, a, d, g and c.

However, when I sing in D, I prefer to capo 2 and use c,f and g shapes.
When I play in A, I prefer to capo 2 and use G, c,f and d shapes.
I also use capo 2 for playing in F#

If I'm playing a blues in E, I'll play open,but if it is more country/bluegrass style I'll capo 4 and use c,f, and g shapes.

To play in B (common in bluegrass) I'll capo 4 and use g, c and d shapes.

I tend to avoid playing in sharp/flat keys but these three positions give me a, b, c, d, e and g - that does it for me.

Does that help?