Notation Help Please

[Guitars+gems]

I am trying to figure out The Best is Yet to Come from the Great American Songbook. I can read the notes pretty well, but it's giving me an Eb and an E nat.
In front of the time signature it's telling me the E space, A space are flats, the G line and D line are flats. So I thought that meant all the E's, A's, G's, D's are played as flats whether higher or lower. But maybe I'm wrong, because the E line (bottom line in the staff) has no flat symbol (left of the time sig) and the E notes on that line are marked flat, or natural, or nothing. So, what is the difference between the low E with no sign and the low E with the natural sign? And if indeed all the E's are supposed to be flats except when indicated, why does one of the E notes have a flat sign next to it? And also, I played the D# for the Eb and that seems to sound ok.

Yeah, I'm

[SunnyDee]

Just guessing. If the naturals are accidental, is the Eb coming after to tell you to go stop playing naturals? Does it do that?

The D# and the Eb are the same on guitar. But maybe you mean it sounds ok in that spot?

Yes, the key signature refers to all the notes of that name, not just the one on the line where the sign is.

[stanron]

I think you'll find what you call the G line is actually the B line. Four flats in the key signature suggest the key of A flat or F minor.

It's not uncommon to have sharps or flats in a score that are not in the key signature. These only last for the bar in which they are written. Sharps or flats can be cancelled mid bar by a natural sign and a natural can be cancelled by a repeat of the original sharp or flat.

Notes like D sharp and E flat, which sound the same but have different names, are called enharmonic. It's the key and the key signature which decides which name is used.

Key Signatures have developed to be as easy to read as possible. The number of sharps or flats can tell the reader the key at first glance. I have a photocopy of a score that was printed in 1730. Back then if the F was sharp, every F on the stave had a sharp sign in the Key Signature. So the key of G, which today has just one sharp at the start of the score, in this book has two. One on the top line and another in the bottom space. This practice makes reading Key Signatures really difficult. Your single E flat is part of current simplification. All Es are played flat unless they have the natural sign in front of them but only the top space has the symbol in the Key Signature.

[Guitars+gems]

Originally Posted by stanron

I think you'll find what you call the G line is actually the B line. Four flats in the key signature suggest the key of A flat or F minor.

It's not uncommon to have sharps or flats in a score that are not in the key signature. These only last for the bar in which they are written. Sharps or flats can be cancelled mid bar by a natural sign and a natural can be cancelled by a repeat of the original sharp or flat.

Notes like D sharp and E flat, which sound the same but have different names, are called enharmonic. It's the key and the key signature which decides which name is used.

Key Signatures have developed to be as easy to read as possible. The number of sharps or flats can tell the reader the key at first glance. I have a photocopy of a score that was printed in 1730. Back then if the F was sharp, every F on the stave had a sharp sign in the Key Signature. So the key of G, which today has just one sharp at the start of the score, in this book has two. One on the top line and another in the bottom space. This practice makes reading Key Signatures really difficult. Your single E flat is part of current simplification. All Es are played flat unless they have the natural sign in front of them but only the top space has the symbol in the Key Signature.

Yes, Stanron, you're right, I meant the B line. I knew it when I looked at it, and that's why I didn't question the flat sign in front of the G in the first measure (which I think of as 1/2 step to the left of the G, or F#.) And the song is in A flat key I figured, because the first chord is A flat. I had not thought about the 4 flats in the time signature indicating the key of A flat. I think I read that at some point but had forgotten it. Like I do with about 90% of everything I read.

Sharps or flats can be cancelled mid bar by a natural sign and a natural can be cancelled by a repeat of the original sharp or flat.

Okay, this unconfuses me about the various symbols or lack of symbols in front of the E notes. Now I can understand what is happening, and SunnyDee, I think you suggested that too, right?

This is painful. I wonder if I wouldn't just be better off figuring the song out by ear. Although, I could get the melody line, but I'd never have figured out the chords. Abmaj7 for instance. Sheesh!

Anyway, thanks for help.

[stanron]

There's a lot to be said in favour of learning to read music. It is worth the effort. At the same time there is an equal amount to be said in favour of developing your ability to learn by ear.

It has been suggested that you can only do one or the other. Not true. You can do both and be better off for it.

[Mandobart]

I'm trying to break your questions down one by one.

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

I am trying to figure out The Best is Yet to Come from the Great American Songbook. I can read the notes pretty well, but it's giving me an Eb and an E nat.

Accidentals can occur in any song in any key. This just means the songwriter wanted to inlude a note not normally found in the song's key. A note can be played natural, flat or sharp and only one of those is the "normal" for the key. If a noted is annotated natural, flat or sharp that carries through the rest of that measure, unless specifically annotated otherwise in that measure. The note reverts to the "normal" state for that key on the next measure, unless annotated otherwise.

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

In front of the time signature it's telling me the E space, A space are flats, the G line and D line are flats. So I thought that meant all the E's, A's, G's, D's are played as flats whether higher or lower.

Ok, sharps and flats follow a progression. If there is only one flat it is a Bb. Nothing else. You are in the key of F. There is no time signature with just an Eb, for example. If there are two flats, they will be Bb and Eb. Always. Three flats are Bb, Eb and Ab. Notice how the flats all follow a 4th interval, starting with Bb? Four flats always will be Bb, Eb, Ab and Db. Key of Ab major or Fm. There is no key with Eb, Ab, Gb and Db. And you're right that in this key all the B, E, A and D notes (unless otherwise annotated) will be played flat no matter where they show up on the lines, spaces, ledgers or fretboard.

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

But maybe I'm wrong, because the E line (bottom line in the staff) has no flat symbol (left of the time sig)

And it never will. In the key signature Eb is always denoted on the highest staff space, never on the first (lowest) staff line. Yes, you are wrong (sorry! You really can't read notes pretty well, it turns out...)

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

..the E notes on that line are marked flat, or natural, or nothing. So, what is the difference between the low E with no sign and the low E with the natural sign? And if indeed all the E's are supposed to be flats except when indicated, why does one of the E notes have a flat sign next to it?

As I wrote above, a note can be played natural, flat or sharp and only one of those is the "normal" for the key. If a noted is annotated natural, flat or sharp that carries through the rest of that measure, unless specifically annotated otherwise in that measure. The note reverts to the "normal" state for that key on the next measure, unless annotated otherwise.

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

...And also, I played the D# for the Eb and that seems to sound ok.

Yes, because D# is Eb. They are the exact same note. We don't do quarter tones in western music. C# is Db. E# is F natural. A# is Bb. And so on....

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

Yeah, I'm

You need to spend some time on the very basics of music notation. You don't have to be able to read music to play music, but you have to be able to read music to read music. And right now you don't read music. But you will if you get a little help and keep at it!

[Guitars+gems]

Mandobart, Well, ok, I get your point, my questions were not... well informed, shall we say? Actually, yes I know that D# and Eb are the same note. I just meant that I'd had to stop and think about that because that note is usually referred to as D# on the fretboard. (At least by me.)

You need to spend some time on the very basics of music notation. You don't have to be able to read music to play music, but you have to be able to read music to read music. And right now you don't read music. But you will if you get a little help and keep at it!

Dude! I'm trying! But as usual, when I'm excited about something I tend to wade out past the breakers. And drown. Ok, water wings back on.
Thanks for taking the time to answer.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

Mandobart, Well, ok, I get your point, my questions were not... well informed, shall we say? Actually, yes I know that D# and Eb are the same note. I just meant that I'd had to stop and think about that because that note is usually referred to as D# on the fretboard. (At least by me.)

You and a million other guitarists... .
Digital tuners (and similar software) are to blame, because hey have no way of distinguishing whether a sharp or flat enharmonic is appropriate, because they don't know the context. (And of course if you're only tuning your guitar, it hardly matters.)

So, that note is D# if the key is E, B, F# or C# major, or their relative minor keys (C#m, G#m, D#m, A#m). It's also D# if the key is E minor or B minor. It's D# if it's in the chords of B, G#m, G#, D#m, F#6, etc.
But it's Eb if the key is Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb (or their relative minors). It's Eb in the chords Eb, Cm, Ab, F7, Fm7, etc.

(That's another reason guitarists tend to call it D#. Guitar music is much more often in sharp keys than in flat keys, because chords in sharp keys are mostly easier. So "D#" is more often correct.)

The rule is that every 7 note scale needs one of each note letter and only one. The Bb major scale can't have a D# because it already has a D, and would have no E (Bb-C-D-D#-F...). Likewise the B major scale can't have an Eb because it already has an E, and would have no D (B-C#-Eb-E...).
And the reason for that rule is mainly so that each note can have its own line or space on notation, making it easier to read.
It means the C# major scale needs an E# and a B# - notes we'd usually call F and C, but can't in this case. Likewise, the Cb major scale needs Cb and Fb, not B and E.
In major scales, it results in the handy rule that you don't mix sharps and flats.
But it also results in a few minor scales which do mix them, in order to preserve the 1-of-each-note rule:
D harmonic minor: D E F G A Bb C#
G harmonic minor: G A Bb C D Eb F#
G melodic minor: G A Bb C D E F#

When we have one of each note letter, than the names of intervals and chord tones make better sense. So, B-D# is a "3rd" because BCD is 3 letters. B-Eb would be a 4th (BCDE). They sound the same, but B-D# is a major 3rd (from the keys of E, B and F#), and B-Eb is a diminished 4th (from the key of C minor, harmonic and melodic scales).

In short: context is all!

[mercy]

you could call me in such situations, ah but I see as I write it. Its more fun to post on the AGF. Yes I like it.

[jseth]

Denise - This is referring to your statement of "sheesh' when talking about playing an Ab major7 chord:

One of the most wonderful things that happened to me was for a friend to "turn me on" to the Mickey Baker Book, Vol. I... Lesson number 1 is simply a whole bunch of chords, written out for guitar (you know, the little box diagrams), and they are ALL those lovely sounding "jazzy" type chords. Absolutely revelatory for someone like me, who is quite partial to those "pretty" sounds... although I love the Blues, I am always attracted more to melody and sweetness, so they were right up my alley!

You don't even have to follow the lesson plan if you don't want... that first page is worth the price of the booklet! It's from the 50's and has been instrumental in the formation of many players' appreciation and further learning of the jazz genre.

In the decades since the book came out, the "lingo" has changed in modern jazz and pop music, but the basic ideas still work very well.

I have had this book "around" since the 70's... I have yet to "complete" all the lessons, but I use what I have learned EVERY time I play the guitar!

Check it out! You can find it on Amazon or nearly anywhere else that sells music books... There are many other methods that are much more comprehensive in depth, but the Mickey Baker Introduction to Jazz Guitar is a terrific place to start the journey!

If nothing else, it will assist you in your playing all those songs from the "Great American" Songbooks... Gershwin, Cole Porter, Rodgers and Hart, Ellington, etc. etc. etc...

[Guitars+gems]

Originally Posted by mercy

you could call me in such situations, ah but I see as I write it. Its more fun to post on the AGF. Yes I like it.

Not more fun, John, just more anonymous and I didn't know if you needed me pestering you with my questions.

Originally Posted by jseth

Denise - This is referring to your statement of "sheesh' when talking about playing an Ab major7 chord:

One of the most wonderful things that happened to me was for a friend to "turn me on" to the Mickey Baker Book, Vol. I... Lesson number 1 is simply a whole bunch of chords, written out for guitar (you know, the little box diagrams), and they are ALL those lovely sounding "jazzy" type chords. Absolutely revelatory for someone like me, who is quite partial to those "pretty" sounds... although I love the Blues, I am always attracted more to melody and sweetness, so they were right up my alley!

You don't even have to follow the lesson plan if you don't want... that first page is worth the price of the booklet! It's from the 50's and has been instrumental in the formation of many players' appreciation and further learning of the jazz genre.

In the decades since the book came out, the "lingo" has changed in modern jazz and pop music, but the basic ideas still work very well.

I have had this book "around" since the 70's... I have yet to "complete" all the lessons, but I use what I have learned EVERY time I play the guitar!

Check it out! You can find it on Amazon or nearly anywhere else that sells music books... There are many other methods that are much more comprehensive in depth, but the Mickey Baker Introduction to Jazz Guitar is a terrific place to start the journey!

If nothing else, it will assist you in your playing all those songs from the "Great American" Songbooks... Gershwin, Cole Porter, Rodgers and Hart, Ellington, etc. etc. etc...

John Seth, I seriously doubt that I'll ever be adept enough at guitar to play jazz, but I did go ahead and order the book. 'Cause you never know, I may surprise myself yet, and at least I could try to learn a few chords, right? Thanks for the suggestion.

[jseth]

Glad you ordered that book, Denise... I'm telling you, just that first page with all those cool chords will give you some juicy stuff to chew on... I have found ~75% of them to be quite useful and they've found their way into my everyday play... and I still am working on that other 25%!

However diligently you choose to apply (and employ) the information in that book, I know you'll have fun with it! Especially when you play those old Jazz/Pop Standards...

Please let us all know what your experience is, after you've had it for a bit...

[Guitars+gems]

Thanks, John, I will. I'm about to go to Florida to spend several weeks with my son and his family, and will take my guitar and the book. My son's a jazz guitarist, actually took a few lessons from Ted Greene in the 90's and often works in Greene's Chord Chemistry. So I'll be interested to see what he thinks of the Baker book.

[LSemmens]

I learnt how to read music as a kid, although it has served me well, it has also been a hindrance in that I never did learn to play by ear. It's a skill I have resolved to develop even though I know the main progressions, I still cannot determine which notes are being played.

[jseth]

Originally Posted by Guitars+gems

Thanks, John, I will. I'm about to go to Florida to spend several weeks with my son and his family, and will take my guitar and the book. My son's a jazz guitarist, actually took a few lessons from Ted Greene in the 90's and often works in Greene's Chord Chemistry. So I'll be interested to see what he thinks of the Baker book.

Well, if he's into Ted Greene's stuff, the Mickey Baker book will seem like a kindergarten primer! Ted's playing and teaching are miles ahead of the Mickey Baker book...

My guess is that he will say it's "okay, to start with...", but he'll have "better ideas" for your development!

By the way, being able to play some interesting chords and making through the Great American Songbook songs should NOT be confused with "playing jazz"... different critters entirely! What "we" frequently refer to as "Jazz Standards" are mostly the Pop songs from the 20's through the 50's...

Have a fun trip to Florida and back again!!!