Question on singing and placement of capo

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

odd other than fish and whistle just about every other John Prine song I know uses C and D shapes.

Only if you want to play it correctly. ;-). He does a lot in C, D and G. Good ol' cowboy chords. A lot of what I play is in G and C.

[macmanmatty]

Thanks john for your wealth of information. Could it be that flat keys just sound better to me? I have extreme relative pitch. I can't her notes at all. All I hear is numbers of the scale the song could be in any key. I hear Root 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th , b7th ect the relative notes of the scale and the same for chords too root 5th 4th minor 6th ECT.

Also why does fish and whistle never go past the 5th in the vocal range? I hit a 6th note on the 4th chord when I fingerpick the melody like John Prine?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

Thanks john for your wealth of information. Could it be that flat keys just sound better to me?

I don't know why they would. Why Ab and Gb sound OK, but not G, in between?

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

I have extreme relative pitch. I can't her notes at all. All I hear is numbers of the scale the song could be in any key. I hear Root 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th , b7th ect the relative notes of the scale and the same for chords too root 5th 4th minor 6th ECT.

That's good. Better to have relative pitch than perfect pitch!

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

Also why does fish and whistle never go past the 5th in the vocal range? I hit a 6th note on the 4th chord when I fingerpick the melody like John Prine?

You'd have ask him why he chose the melody he did.
Most of the song focuses around the 3rd, moving up to 4 and down to 2, and then down to 1. In the bridge, he hits a high D (5th) on the last note ("a-gain"). That's a natural high point of tension (on the D chord too) as the bridge resolves back into the verse. No need to go higher than that!

The guitar accompaniment is something else. You can pick anything you like out of the chords, it doesn't need to have any bearing on the vocal. The three chords obviously contain every note of the key between them, many of them doubled.

[macmanmatty]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Keys can't be out of your range.

I got to thinking, If A person had a vocal range of less than one octave would not certain keys be out of his range?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

I got to thinking, If A person had a vocal range of less than one octave would not certain keys be out of his range?

Yes. That's because the keynote of a song will almost always occur somewhere in the song (if it doesn't, which is theoretically possible, the song will always sound unfinished...). So if that keynote is outside his less-than-an-octave range, that key is also out of bounds for him.

Let's say his range ran from D (4th string) up to B (2nd string), a range of a major 6th.
That means he just can't sing a C or Db note, in any octave. Barring the rare possibility of a song which never featured its keynote, then, those two keys are impossible for him. It's a rare hypothetical scenario, but in this case you're correct!

It would also be unlikely (but not impossible) he could sing a song in B or Bb, or maybe A, because it's unusual for a keynote to be at the top of the melodic range (if not also at the bottom).

Plenty of other options would be within his grasp, although he's obviously going to need songs with a range of a major 6th or less. And the nearer the song's range approaches his, the fewer his key choices.

A lot of common songs would be impossible for him, regardless of key. Happy Birthday, Amazing Grace, national anthem (almost anyone's)...

He could sing Twinkle Twinkle (range 6th) in only one key: D major.
Likewise Blowin' in the Wind: D only. (And he'd have to forget the low C# near the end.)

For Fish & Whistle, the range of a 5th gives him a couple more key choices: D, Eb and E major. (So if he wanted to use G shapes, that would mean a capo on fret 7, 8 or 9.)

Does this mean D is his "home key", perhaps? No.

Take Knockin' on Heaven's Door, or Helpless. Their range is also a perfect 5th, but the keynote is not the bottom note. He couldn't sing those in D (the range would be either too high or too low), it would have to be F, F# or G.
(The range in F, D-A, is exactly the same as the range for Fish and Whistle in D.)

For a song with a very narrow range - say "Losing My Religion" (range perfect 4th) - he could sing that in 5 different keys (all lower than the original): E minor, F minor, F# minor, G minor, G# minor.
Again, there's not much relation to the key choices for the above songs. The (minor) keynote of LMR is the second note up in the range. (In the original A minor, the range is G-C.)

So all those keys are within his range for those specific songs.
Putting it another way, the keys are irrelevant. Key is not the issue.
Even he were to look at a song in C and say "no way I can sing that", he couldn't be sure until he looked at the range of the melody.

[macmanmatty]

One more question John Myself as well as My karaoke instructor and most people in the audience and some people I have played for agreed I sing better in flat keys.
Although key of A is in my range I sing better in Ab although B is my range I sing better in Bb and C I sing better in Cb.
These keys also sound brighter sharper and clearer when I play in them (the guitar, banjo, dobro, mandolin, lap steel or bass parts).
G capo 1 sound much better to me than G capo 2. Capo 1 sounds bright sharp and clear, I sing wonderful in it. G capo 2 sounds dark, dull, and muddy I sing decent in it. Same for C capo 1 or C capo 2 any ideas as to why?

EDIT: After going through the video with other people (some of which know alot more about singing than me) I have determined my vocal range to be G3-B5. I by myself could not tell which notes I was singing comfortably or in the case of the low notes even singing

[sirwhale]

This has been a very interesting read, thanks for all the knowledge Jon. I did the vocal range with girlfriend a few weeks ago using my guitar. Comfortably singing, I reckon I'm about a F#2 - E4

What was strange was that my girlfriend seemed to have a very very similar range to me, either the same, of just a semitone (maybe a tone) difference. She is a small, slim petite girl.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by sirwhale

This has been a very interesting read, thanks for all the knowledge Jon. I did the vocal range with girlfriend a few weeks ago using my guitar. Comfortably singing, I reckon I'm about a F#2 - E4

What was strange was that my girlfriend seemed to have a very very similar range to me, either the same, of just a semitone (maybe a tone) difference. She is a small, slim petite girl.

She's probably singing an octave higher then: F#3 - E5 maybe.
I doubt very much any female could get down to F#2... (even some men find that hard).
A female singer I worked had a low-ish voice for a woman. She could get down to D3 (guitar 4th string), but not easily higher than C5 (fret 8 top string). She used to sing Stevie Wonder songs a minor 3rd lower than him!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

One more question John Myself as well as My karaoke instructor

There are such things as karaoke instructors???
Do they get paid for that?

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

and most people in the audience and some people I have played for agreed I sing better in flat keys.
Although key of A is in my range I sing better in Ab although B is my range I sing better in Bb and C I sing better in Cb.

Whoah. You're saying you sing better in Cb than in B? Can you see the contradiction there?

It makes perfect sense that for a particular song in A you might sing it better in Ab. Or for a given song in B, you might find it easier in Bb. That's simply because you're choosing a slightly lower range, because (I guess) the top note in key of A (or B for the other song) is a little high.
Have you ever had a song that was originally in A that you found easier in Bb?

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

These keys also sound brighter sharper and clearer when I play in them (the guitar, banjo, dobro, mandolin, lap steel or bass parts).
G capo 1 sound much better to me than G capo 2. Capo 1 sounds bright sharp and clear, I sing wonderful in it. G capo 2 sounds dark, dull, and muddy I sing decent in it. Same for C capo 1 or C capo 2 any ideas as to why?

Nope, no clue. Makes no sense to me.
They're certainly subjective judgements you're making, there's no objective physical (or biological) grounds for it. [but see below on pitch memory]

What happens when you tune down a half-step? Does that make a difference to the frets you like to place the capo on? (If your understanding is right, you would be placing the capo a fret higher.)

It's not surprising that people who listen to you agree with your own assessment of when you sound better. If you believe you sound better in certain keys, then you will appear more confident, and probably will sing better.
It may be nothing to do with the keys themselves (or the songs), but with your habit of choosing those keys.

There is a phenomenon known as "pitch memory", which is a little like a crude kind of perfect pitch. Research has shown that if we hear a particular song enough times in the same key, the sound of that key gets embedded somehow in our memory. When asked to sing the song (with no reference, and without having heard it for a while) subjects tended to sing the song - or attempt to - very close to its original key.
This is people who don't have perfect pitch. People with perfect pitch would know right away what the key was, and could identify it and reproduce it consciously. These experimental subjects were not musicians, and did not have PP - but somehow they still had a pitch memory.

My own experience of this was with a Chuck Berry song that I always knew and played in the original key (C). But then I was in a band with a female singer, who found the range of the song was best for her in key of F. So we played it in F. It felt very strange, and sounded plain "wrong" to me. I had the memory of C major embedded in my brain for that song.
However, the more we played it in that key (and the less I played it in C), the more "right" it started to sound.
This was nothing to do with the inherent properties of the keys themselves, purely with my listening and playing habits. The effect would have been the same if we'd played it in some other key: Bb, G, Ab, whatever. Being used to it in C, it would have sounded wrong at first, and then slowly become more right.

So I suspect your experience is down to pitch memory in some form. You've got used to those flat keys - not only singing in them but playing in them.
(And you still seem confused about the difference between key and range in determining the singability of a song.)

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

EDIT: After going through the video with other people (some of which know alot more about singing than me) I have determined my vocal range to be G3-B5.

If you're an adult male, I doubt that - although maybe you're using a different octave designation.
Going by the most common designation (C4 = middle C,; A4 = 440) G3 is open 3rd string on guitar. B5, meanwhile is fret 19 on the top E string. That suggests female soprano range. (Are you a trained soprano??)

Assuming you're an adult male, then, my guess is your range is actually an octave down from that: G2-B4 (fret 3 6th string up to fret 7 1st string). That's a very healthy range of two octaves plus a 3rd. B4 is still very high for a man, but within tenor range. Most men would break into falsetto before getting up there.

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

I by myself could not tell which notes I was singing comfortably or in the case of the low notes even singing

Hmm. You ought to be able to match your voice to your guitar. I'm no singer, but I can do that. (I didn't used to be able to, but then I was even less of a singer than I am now!)
If you can pitch your voice well enough to sing songs in tune (with your guitar), then you must be able to find your sung notes on the guitar.

[macmanmatty]

Originally Posted by JonPR

There are such things as karaoke instructors???
Do they get paid for that?

He is my friend who sings very well was trained to sing hosts karaoke and is teaching me to sing for free. Free is much cheaper than the 150$ an hour for singing lessons (cheapest I was quoted in my area).

Originally Posted by JonPR

Whoah. You're saying you sing better in Cb than in B? Can you see the contradiction there?

No But I do sing Better in the four flat keys (Ab, Bb, Eb, F) and the three enharmonic keys ( Cb / B, Db /C#, Gb/ F#) then any of the sharp keys (G, A, D, E ) or the natural C. In MOST songs (Some I sing about the same in either sharp or flat keys) Could it have something to do with actual frequencies i'm singing? and my vocal chords resonate better with the ones corrosponding to the flat notes or notes with in flat keys?

Originally Posted by JonPR

It makes perfect sense that for a particular song in A you might sing it better in Ab. Or for a given song in B, you might find it easier in Bb. That's simply because you're choosing a slightly lower range, because (I guess) the top note in key of A (or B for the other song) is a little high.
Have you ever had a song that was originally in A that you found easier in Bb?

Most songs In key of A I do Capo 1 key of Bb or capo 2 key of Cb

Originally Posted by JonPR

Nope, no clue. Makes no sense to me.
They're certainly subjective judgements you're making, there's no objective physical (or biological) grounds for it. [but see below on pitch memory]

What happens when you tune down a half-step? Does that make a difference to the frets you like to place the capo on? (If your understanding is right, you would be placing the capo a fret higher.)

Yes it does it put the capo up higher and sometimes I don't use a Capo Because I can now play songs that were in key of G originally in key of Gb or Songs of A in Ab or Songs in C in Cb. But usually the capo goes up one fret.

Originally Posted by JonPR

It's not surprising that people who listen to you agree with your own assessment of when you sound better. If you believe you sound better in certain keys, then you will appear more confident, and probably will sing better.
It may be nothing to do with the keys themselves (or the songs), but with your habit of choosing those keys.

There is a phenomenon known as "pitch memory", which is a little like a crude kind of perfect pitch. Research has shown that if we hear a particular song enough times in the same key, the sound of that key gets embedded somehow in our memory. When asked to sing the song (with no reference, and without having heard it for a while) subjects tended to sing the song - or attempt to - very close to its original key.
This is people who don't have perfect pitch. People with perfect pitch would know right away what the key was, and could identify it and reproduce it consciously. These experimental subjects were not musicians, and did not have PP - but somehow they still had a pitch memory.

My own experience of this was with a Chuck Berry song that I always knew and played in the original key (C). But then I was in a band with a female singer, who found the range of the song was best for her in key of F. So we played it in F. It felt very strange, and sounded plain "wrong" to me. I had the memory of C major embedded in my brain for that song.
However, the more we played it in that key (and the less I played it in C), the more "right" it started to sound.
This was nothing to do with the inherent properties of the keys themselves, purely with my listening and playing habits. The effect would have been the same if we'd played it in some other key: Bb, G, Ab, whatever. Being used to it in C, it would have sounded wrong at first, and then slowly become more right.

So I suspect your experience is down to pitch memory in some form. You've got used to those flat keys - not only singing in them but playing in them.
(And you still seem confused about the difference between key and range in determining the singability of a song.)

Originally Posted by JonPR

If you're an adult male, I doubt that - although maybe you're using a different octave designation.


Going by the most common designation (C4 = middle C,; A4 = 440) G3 is open 3rd string on guitar. B5, meanwhile is fret 19 on the top E string. That suggests female soprano range. (Are you a trained soprano??)

Assuming you're an adult male, then, my guess is your range is actually an octave down from that: G2-B4 (fret 3 6th string up to fret 7 1st string). That's a very healthy range of two octaves plus a 3rd. B4 is still very high for a man, but within tenor range. Most men would break into falsetto before getting up there.


Hmm. You ought to be able to match your voice to your guitar. I'm no singer, but I can do that. (I didn't used to be able to, but then I was even less of a singer than I am now!)
If you can pitch your voice well enough to sing songs in tune (with your guitar), then you must be able to find your sung notes on the guitar.

My problem if I'm only having to sing one note I can't really tell if I'm comfortably singing it. and I'm also not sure do to my relative pitch if I'm dropping it an octave. Also what should I sing for that one note does "la " work? That's what I was doing. The people who helped better determine my vocal range are my parents who can't sing but my dad does have a VERY good ear trained from classical violin lessons as a child.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

No But I do sing Better in the four flat keys (Ab, Bb, Eb, F) and the three enharmonic keys ( Cb / B, Db /C#, Gb/ F#) then any of the sharp keys (G, A, D, E ) or the natural C. In MOST songs (Some I sing about the same in either sharp or flat keys) Could it have something to do with actual frequencies i'm singing? and my vocal chords resonate better with the ones corrosponding to the flat notes or notes with in flat keys?

Well, that's an interesting concept, and there may be something in the idea that we each have a natural bodily resonance, certain sets of notes that feel more right than others.
That would seem to suggest that we each have one natural keynote, but it might also allow for related keys to feel natural too. (Eg, if your personal home key was, say, Eb, then the keys of Ab and Bb might feel as natural because they share all the notes of Eb except one.)
But that's hypothesising. More research required!

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

Most songs In key of A I do Capo 1 key of Bb or capo 2 key of Cb

You mean key of B. No need to call it Cb, that's just more complicated (7 flats instead of 5 sharps).

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

Yes it does it put the capo up higher and sometimes I don't use a Capo Because I can now play songs that were in key of G originally in key of Gb or Songs of A in Ab or Songs in C in Cb. But usually the capo goes up one fret.

So for songs in A, you would either capo fret 1 or 2 and play in Bb or B (as you said above), or capo fret 1 and play in Ab (ie G shapes)?

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

My problem if I'm only having to sing one note I can't really tell if I'm comfortably singing it. and I'm also not sure do to my relative pitch if I'm dropping it an octave.

Hmm I don't quite follow that.
Can you play one note on the guitar, and sing that?
How high or low can you go (playing one note on the guitar) before you can't match it with your voice?

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

Also what should I sing for that one note does "la " work?

Doesn't really matter, but I find humming "mmm" works for me.

If you want to hear your voice more clearly (as it sounds to other people), a good tip is to sing into the corner of a room, from a foot or two away. The angle reflects your voice directly back to your ears. It would also reflect your guitar back of course.
(alternatively you could use a mic and headphones, if you have the gear.)

Originally Posted by macmanmatty

That's what I was doing. The people who helped better determine my vocal range are my parents who can't sing but my dad does have a VERY good ear trained from classical violin lessons as a child.

Ah, he ought to be a good guide then.

[piper_guitarist]

Originally Posted by mc1

perhaps you are singing an octave lower in one of the positions.

I do this A LOT. I have a very low voice and often times I capo UP and transpose the melody down.

Granted, I only sing in the privacy of my own home because I have an awful voice, but yes, I do this quite a bit.

[sirwhale]

Originally Posted by JonPR

She's probably singing an octave higher then: F#3 - E5 maybe.
I doubt very much any female could get down to F#2... (even some men find that hard).
A female singer I worked had a low-ish voice for a woman. She could get down to D3 (guitar 4th string), but not easily higher than C5 (fret 8 top string). She used to sing Stevie Wonder songs a minor 3rd lower than him!

You're right, we did it again and she was singing an octave higher. Manliness restored.