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  #61  
Old 04-27-2013, 02:50 AM
trion12 trion12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IPYF View Post
It disappoints me that the reality of the jazz scene as you've explained it from your experiences does seem to be very exclusionary and insular. I don't agree with that on a personal level and it saddens me that it's the case. Clearly it's not my 'scene', but I don't think for a second that any of the above would stop me from learning jazz music at my own pace.
As someone who spent years in that scene it can be exclusionary and insular.

The players in that scene who develop to a high degree of skill spend years dedicating their lives to it - they are not "dabblers" - they live and breathe this stuff - it defines their lives.
They also tend to be unrecognized and under-appreciated unlike classical players who society affords a certain status, and many popular musicians who really are not very good musicians at all but reap enormous rewards.

The insularity and dedication required to develop to a high degree of skill coupled with the lack of recognition can tend the make the players dismissive of those who "dabble". I am not saying that is a good thing but it is a natural aspect of human nature in any field of endeavor to dismiss those who "dabble" at what you have spent a good portion of your life dedicated to in an obsessive manner.

If you want to have a "dabble" I say go for it, and if it informs your own musical journey and helps you travel your own path thats good stuff.

Just be aware that to be taken seriously by players in that scene that you do have to earn your stripes - not by being a great player necessarily but at the very least by showing your respect for the tradition by at least doing your listening homework on the "classic" material in that tradition.

If you show respect for the tradition by doing that, you are showing respect for the dedication that players in that scene exemplify and they will usually be welcoming to newcomers with a "good attitude" who are interested in what what they have devoted themselves to.

Aaron
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  #62  
Old 04-27-2013, 07:17 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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I can't really agree with this.

The reason patience is lost on dabblers has nothing to do with lack of recognition...it's that you simply cannot "dabble" and actually play jazz.

I was practicing/learning jazz full time for several years before I could hang at a jam. It's a big time committment...The skill set required to play jazz, the listening, the improvisation, the accompanyment, the chops...it's not something learned by dabbling.
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  #63  
Old 04-27-2013, 07:50 AM
815C 815C is offline
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So I was sitting listening to a jazz quintet practicing. Upright bass, piano, two horns, and drums. The bass player was the leader and based on his playing and observations/inputs during the rehearsal had a whatever "IT" is that makes someone a master at jazz. I knew I was in the presence of someone who could rightfully be described as a GREAT jazz player.

I asked him how it was he got there.

He answered that for many many years he played in a jazz band in Las Vegas from 11:00 p.m. - 5:00 a.m., 7 days a week. There were NO CHARTS and he just had to know the tunes, or learn them on the spot.

I explained that I knew a TON of jazz theory, could spell all the jazz chords, knew all the scales and arpeggios and could play them all over the neck. BUT I wanted him to teach me and take me up to the next level of playing jazz.

He said, "Well, I could show you a few things, but with the knowledge you already have, I'd suggest you listen to all those recordings [as he pointed to a wall with floor to ceiling shelves stretching about 15 feet was filled with jazz CDs] and transcribe what really speaks to you."

I said, "It would take me years to just listen to all those - and with my day job, it would take me even more years to find time to transcribe the stuff i liked."

He looked me straight in the eye and said, "Then quit your day job and devote your life to jazz." He wasn't joking.

BTW, I do see how valuable learning SONGS is and transcribing the masters, BUT I still have my day job...
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  #64  
Old 04-27-2013, 09:05 AM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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This has been quite an interesting thread. As I have read this, I am wondering if there are really two (or more) conceptual threads going on here. One can pursue jazz by total immersion in it, and I think the point about that have been well made. One can also (and maybe this is where the "dabbling" applies) learn certain aspects of harmoony that are used in jazz, without really becoming a "jazz" player. I have been enjoying the journey of learning to play "chord melody", but would not consider myself a "jazz" player, though I do participate to some degree in the chord melody forum on the jazz guitar site. Instead, I am using certain types of harmony (color tones, bass line movements) to present the melody. I am, in a sense, borrowing from the jazz idiom, but am not making any claims to playing "jazz". Also, I have recently started playing with a group of musicians that plays the standards and seem to be able to present reasonable rhythm guitar for them, but again, I am NOT a "jazz" player.

I think there is a distinction here. Musicians "borrow" from different musical styles without having to delve deeply, as in total immersion", into any one particular style. Considering what it takes to truly be a "jazz" guitarist, I would not consider myself even close to that just because I use color tones and certain bass line movements to derive the underlying harmony for my chord melody playing. When I say "chord melody", I am referring to playing the melody and supporting it with chordal harmony. I am not implying the kind of improv artistry that somebody such as Joe Pass brought to it. I think that, especially in a forum such as this, the terms we use wiill be interpreted by others in ways we did not intend, and that can lead to miscommunication. I am possibly seeing that with some parts of this thread.

It may well be that my use of the term "chord melody" is incorrect. If so, then if there is a more accurate term for what I am doing, I would certainly use it instead. Basically, I see "chord melody" as the guitar equivalent of playing tunes as solos on the piano, regardless of the stylings used. Some do it in a cocktail piano style, and others make a real art form of it, just as is done on the guitar. I tend more toward the cocktail piano styling, with the melody clearly presented at all times. I really enjoy exploring what I can do with the underlying harmony while staying true to the melody (i.e. not melodic improv), and do it for my own enjoyment, though opportunities do come along to do some of it in public.

Though I am addressing chord melody here because it is what I am personally doing, my point is related to the discussion in that there is the "real" jazz musician and then there are those who borrow from the jazz idiom, but are not jazz musicians as described in this thread. I am definitely NOT a jazz musician, though I do have a very large collection of jazz and do listen to it almost exclusively. It has taken me quite some time to really learn to appreciate what is going on in those recordings. You can't, unfortunately, get that from a book.

I have a blog site in which I talk to adults who want to pursue the guitar as a hobby/avocation, with the chord melody style being a good, enjoyable way to do that. People do it all the time on piano, so why not guitar? It is a lifetime pursuit in which one will never run out of new things to learn and apply, new directions to go. It can be as inexpensive or expensive as one wants to take it. Hopefully, I am not implying that what I present there is "jazz" guitar, though true jazz players do make quite an art form of chord melody playing.

Anyway, I see truly being a jazz musician and borrowing a few ideas from the jazz idiom as being very different things.

Tony
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  #65  
Old 04-27-2013, 11:59 AM
815C 815C is offline
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Great point Tony.
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  #66  
Old 04-27-2013, 12:52 PM
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Bern Bern is offline
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I think, Tony, put things in perspective.
Personally, I believe, that Jazz, Rock, Blues, etc. are simply genres people choose to immerse themselves...some more than others. I don't find anything wrong with dabbling in different styles and exploring their harmonic structures and ideas.
BTW, the term 'chord melody' is simply a harmonized melody line. Usually, the harmonization is done on the bottom. So, the term 'chord melody' is just fine to use, however, one has to be aware that 'new' chords can be created (playing 'outside' a diatonic structure).
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